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Old October 6th, 2017, 07:38 AM   #91
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
There is nothing theoretical about it.
There is if you cannot demonstrate any benefit in color correction over 444 captured directly. My own internal tests do not demonstrate any gain with common workflows.

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Feel free not to use the 5k mode, I think you miss a lot of opportunities.
Opportunities like what exactly? First, the 5K mode is 4:3, unless open gate is making a comeback, that's already a non-starter.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 07:51 AM   #92
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

The YouTube version you linked to isn't even 4K. It's only in 1440p. The GH5 already uses the entire sensor to downscale and does a good job at it, far more than YouTube's VP9 compression, so unless you have a direct download source for this video, the link itself absolutely does not show an incredible level of detail.

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#3. YouTube or Vimeo video's are a terrible way to do a CRITICAL review of image quality. Nobody has to convince me of that!
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:32 AM   #93
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
There is if you cannot demonstrate any benefit in color correction over 444 captured directly. My own internal tests do not demonstrate any gain with common workflows.

Opportunities like what exactly? First, the 5K mode is 4:3, unless open gate is making a comeback, that's already a non-starter.
Gary, I think there is not much of a point in having a discussion with you, it seems your teacup is already overfull!
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:37 AM   #94
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
Gary, I think there is not much of a point in having a discussion with you, it seems your teacup is already overfull!
Well, I wasn't quite looking for a discussion. I made a point that you won't see a difference if you break 4:2:0 in 4K, it will still break the exact same way even if you apply the same correction after a downscale to 1080 in a theoretical 4:4:4 mode. I have done this testing. If you have as well, and got a different result, I'd love to hear about it.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:46 AM   #95
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Here is another way to visualize this. Imagine millions of pixels but each one having only a 3 color scale. (3 color shade possibilities)

0 = pure black
1 = middle grey
2 = pure white

You could mix millions of these 0, 1 and 2 pixels as much as you want in a 32bit color space but you will never get any shade more than black, grey and white.
Not true.

For instance if you have four sensors they could record 0, 0, 0, 1 the resulting oversampled value would be 0+0+0+1 = 0.25. You would get a resulting 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1 as all possible values.

A sensor has a margin of error in recording a signal value which is called the S/N ratio, if you multisample values multiple times (at the same time) you increase the S/N ratio and thus the bitdepth.

By the way here is a 'grey' image using only black and white pixels:

https://i1.wp.com/nikles.it/wp-conte...Untitled-1.png
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:47 AM   #96
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

I get the math, I get you can do it with a grayscale image. However, "real world results" means, what benefit can you gain from an actual recorded piece of video in color correction, UHD 4:2:0 vs 1080 4:4:4. And the benefit in grading doesn't translate over. I have done this test.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:48 AM   #97
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Well, I wasn't quite looking for a discussion
I know, you only lecture.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 08:52 AM   #98
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
I know, you only lecture.
You have more than enough opportunity to demonstrate that I'm wrong, just like Cliff does. However, you want to complain about my tone and that I don't just take your word for it.

I'm not interested in just taking your word for it. I want to back up your claims with evidence. You won't even respond about if you've tested this yourself. How am I supposed to respect your opinion given that?
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:03 AM   #99
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cary Knoop View Post
Not true.

For instance if you have four sensors they could record 0, 0, 0, 1 the resulting oversampled value would be 0+0+0+1 = 0.25. You would get a resulting 0, 0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1 as all possible values.

A sensor has a margin of error in recording a signal value which is called the S/N ratio, if you multisample values multiple times (at the same time) you increase the S/N ratio and thus the bitdepth.

By the way here is a 'grey' image using only black and white pixels:

https://i1.wp.com/nikles.it/wp-conte...Untitled-1.png
That's interesting Cary. It's confusing,..but interesting! But how would that result in real world color? I'm guessing that would produce arbitrary weird colors???

That's very interesting! I wonder if anybody has actually scaled like this and calculated bit depth like that successfully. I'll check you link in a bit. ;-)

CT
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:10 AM   #100
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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You have more than enough opportunity to demonstrate that I'm wrong, just like Cliff does. However, you want to complain about my tone and that I don't just take your word for it.

I'm not interested in just taking your word for it. I want to back up your claims with evidence. You won't even respond about if you've tested this yourself. How am I supposed to respect your opinion given that?
I could make the statement; "It's a beautiful sunny day here in Miami Florida"

Gary would automatically say; "Nonsense,...display for me your exact GPS coordinates, barometric pressure readings, verified accurate temp readings, visibility distance measurements, humidity metrics and wind speed data from a source I trust."

Until then, he will argue with you until the end of time that you are speaking total B.S.!

CT lol....;-)
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:15 AM   #101
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
The YouTube version you linked to isn't even 4K. It's only in 1440p. The GH5 already uses the entire sensor to downscale and does a good job at it, far more than YouTube's VP9 compression, so unless you have a direct download source for this video, the link itself absolutely does not show an incredible level of detail.
Gary, this is a full 8k upload that is playable in this manner on both my MAC and Windows PC.

Check that link again and verify that your statement above is factually correct.

If you are not able to see this in 8K, than your YouTube playback workflow is CLEARLY flawed or broken. In case you are not aware, the adds before the video are not in 8K

CT ;-)
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:16 AM   #102
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

Then you should have no problem describing your Channel Mixer workflow that you claim shows the inner workings of LongGOP, and you should be able to use that magical workflow to correctly identify the Intra from the LongGOP compression clips from video at this link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...URxNkxvTTJXX28
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:20 AM   #103
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Gary Huff View Post
Then you should have no problem describing your Channel Mixer workflow that you claim shows the inner workings of LongGOP, and you should be able to use that magical workflow to correctly identify the Intra from the LongGOP compression clips from video at this link:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...URxNkxvTTJXX28
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it "magic"....it's nothing special.

It's just plain old fashioned "science". I'll look at it when I get home tonight.

CT ;-)
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:24 AM   #104
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't make it "magic"....it's nothing special. It's just plain old fashioned "science". I'll look at it when I get home tonight.
Oh I do understand it. You're creating a grayscale image from a Channel Mixer plugin and something else (because Channel Mixer alone doesn't totally match what you did, but it's close enough, including the artifacting and the lines).

However, since I've already taken that workflow and applied it to those clips, I can already tell you you're not going to be able to differentiate the Intra vs the LongGOP. So I look forward to your excuse.
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Old October 6th, 2017, 09:28 AM   #105
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Re: Gh5 firmware 2,0

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Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Gary, this is a full 8k upload that is playable in this manner on both my MAC and Windows PC. Check that link again and verify that your statement above is factually correct.
My mistake, I was watching in Safari and not Chrome. Chrome is what's required.

However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
#3. YouTube or Vimeo video's are a terrible way to do a CRITICAL review of image quality. Nobody has to convince me of that!
And my point still stands. You don't have an 8K display, the GH5 is still using the entirety of the sensor and doing a hardware downscale. So on your Mac (not an acronym) and Windows box, you're not actually seeing any benefit over 4K. This video is mostly about the lack of motion blur.
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