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Old June 29th, 2014, 08:50 PM   #61
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
The stabilization is superior to the Sony's implementation for handycams, the AF is lighting fast, touchable , perfect.
Just curious, have reviews shown the FZ1000's stabilization and AF to be superior to the Sony AX100? I use an AX100 at the moment and stabilization/AF are both critically important to the way I work. If they have both been proven to be better on the Panasonic then I'd love to read about that and maybe get a Panasonic camera as well. I don't want to get involved in brand wars and all that, I'm just hoping for honest answers that can steer me to gear that will improve my final product.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 08:54 PM   #62
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Bruce Dempsey View Post
We must maintain a semblance of objectivity in this discussion. It serves no purpose to reduce the conversation to assertions amounting to "my camera is better than your camera" the DMC Lumix FZ1000 isn't even here yet but I for one am delighted my first 4k camera is costing me 1/2 of what the first bunch did.
Doesn't matter if this or that is better or not. It's going to be awesome anyway
Sure, if you take a look at what I say about the XA20 and the ea50 then you'll see that I always tell what I like and loudly what I don't like. For example Canon "forgot" the 1/120 shutter speed for the 60p XA20, and that's ridiculous . LOL
I couldn't care less of the manufacturer of the specific model that I bought..
But please notice that the two members entered a discussion between the two of us regarding the remote zoom suggesting a camera that doesn't even have that option. And that should tell a lot about the fans upset because the toy got ridiculed by the competition at a fraction of the cost with more and better features.

it's not like I need to defend Panasonic , but I had it with the marketing at Sony's spending more time limiting the models than building the models. At least Canon and Panasonic came out with good offers with no hidden little things like Sony does (all the time!)

anyway 2000 vs 800 is a big slap in the face... we have to admit it. oh well ...
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:04 PM   #63
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

I heard they will be available in Japan July 17 and almost ordered on from there but got stung in 2004 ordering a HDr-HC1 from Japan. Menu was in Japanese and wasn't able to hack it for several years to get an English Menu. Need to be able to read the menu lol
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:10 PM   #64
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

"Yes, what fools those initial buyers were of the AX100 - paid $2,000! And the forthcoming camera is only $800 - - a big slap in the face! And it's better (better focus and stabilization (ignoring the fact that in 4K, 5-axis stabilization cannot be used)); I have read the press announcement so I am sure that it is superior. What idiots those Sony fanboys are." :;

Yeah, nothing provocative in this thread at all. I guess having a parfocal, quiet power zoom with smooth aperture changes, built-in ND filters, and battery-size choices are worth nothing, and who needs audio in and out or pro xlr possibilties? The Panasonic 30 minute limitation is also a good thing - reduces the chances of a really boring video. It's a feature - boredom protection!

Anyway it's good to see that there are choices, and, as always, there are trade-offs.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:11 PM   #65
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Peter Siamidis View Post
Just curious, have reviews shown the FZ1000's stabilization and AF to be superior to the Sony AX100? I use an AX100 at the moment and stabilization/AF are both critically important to the way I work. If they have both been proven to be better on the Panasonic then I'd love to read about that and maybe get a Panasonic camera as well. I don't want to get involved in brand wars and all that, I'm just hoping for honest answers that can steer me to gear that will improve my final product.
Absolutely: in here we should tell (others) the truth, and I must admit that usually we do. At least I do, no questions. I always said LOUDLY what I think of the cameras that I have. But in this case I can only talk waiting for the thing to arrive. Regarding the AF there is no doubt that Panasonic got it right since the GH2. The stabilization works great as well but @1080. 4K is a different beast and I have a feeling that only the OIS will work, still better than sony in general, but the 5-axis thing may not work at all (@4K)
anyway regarding the FZ1000 I can only scream about the limitation (intentional) of the 30min (absurd, coming from Panasonic who broke the "deal" with the GH1. All the rest should be in place with no hidden tricks (like Sony does).
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:12 PM   #66
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

I agree with Ken - the few FZ1000 videos posted so far do not appeal to me as much as the AX100 footage I've seen. But, the FZ1000 seems from my reading to have more adjustment options than the AX100. It has CineD and V choices, and you can control highlights and shadows separately, etc.

So I'm really not judging the FZ1000 clips (or Image Stabilization) much yet because we really haven't seen what the camera can really do. Who knows what settings were used in those few sample clips we've seen so far.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #67
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Peter Siamidis View Post
Just curious, have reviews shown the FZ1000's stabilization and AF to be superior to the Sony AX100? I use an AX100 at the moment and stabilization/AF are both critically important to the way I work. If they have both been proven to be better on the Panasonic then I'd love to read about that and maybe get a Panasonic camera as well. I don't want to get involved in brand wars and all that, I'm just hoping for honest answers that can steer me to gear that will improve my final product.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
"Yes, what fools those initial buyers were of the AX100 - paid $2,000! And the forthcoming camera is only $800 - - a big slap in the face! And it's better (better focus and stabilization (ignoring the fact that in 4K, 5-axis stabilization cannot be used)); I have read the press announcement so I am sure that it is superior. What idiots those Sony fanboys are." :;

Yeah, nothing provocative in this thread at all. I guess having a parfocal, quiet power zoom with smooth aperture changes, built-in ND filters, and battery-size choices are worth nothing, and who needs audio in and out or pro xlr possibilties? The Panasonic 30 minute limitation is also a good thing - reduces the chances of a really boring video. It's a feature - boredom protection!

Anyway it's good to see that there are choices, and, as always, there are trade-offs.
Mark
you understand that I shoot with a Sony camera, right?

yes, the 30min. limitation is absurd and plain ridiculous. I already said that, several times, and here I'll say it again. No excuses for Panasonic for coming up with that horrendous trick. Disgusting. they had to "copy" the RX10. shame on Panasonic.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #68
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

The five-axis "thing" does not work at all in 4K, according to Panasonic. There is no question. Thus, there is a real question at this point if in 4K the Panasonic stabilization will be superior. And who knows about focus speed - it is surely worse on the Panasonic GH4 (with their latest lenses) than on the Sony AX100 (I have both, and like both). I would doubt very much that will be different for this cheaper alternative. :)
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:17 PM   #69
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Having shot with still cameras with 30 minute limits, I wouldn't stress it that much... but yeah, it's just one extra thing to deal with on a shoot. Syncing multicam is VERY easy once you get the hang of it with a couple tricks, even without additional software, seldom takes me more than a few minutes even with 4+ cameras! And at least part of the "trick" with a 4K cam is no sync, just pan and scan!

As Noa notes, dynamic range seems like it might be an issue with the Panasonic, he felt highs were "hot"... I looked at the other end, after pulling up the mud in the shadow areas of the samples, looks EXACTLY like I've seen from Panny in the past, and no thank you, macroblocking and mush are not OK for my use - I expect better low light performance and shadow handling than that. It'll probably be fine in good light and unchallenging dynamic range situations, I don't see those often... Falling apart gracefully is one thing, just plain falling apart is another - it could be this is from online compression... if so, then it's another matter, but I'd expect Panny to have done their best with promo clips...

I am THRILLED that the price of 4K is dropping so quickly, but I suspect there will be LOTS of 4K that really isn't so great, except on paper... it's what's on screens that count! Even shooting with the AX100 requires a little bit more attention and manual intervention than "point and shoot in auto", but the results are worth it. We'll see in a few weeks if the FZ holds up in use. I'm sure some will find it a useful tool.



@Anthony - I modded MY OWN mounts, there is no worry about shorting (can't happen, as I discovered on closer examination of the shoe before modding my "feet"). They are 100% sturdy and will NOT come off under any normal circumstances - I wouldn't worry about mounting a handle of some sort on the triple mount and using it to carry the cam like the NX30. Light(s) and mic are NOT A PROBLEM! This comes from EXPERIENCE too, so please don't pretend your "opinion" is the last or only word... it is not. Stirring drama over an aftermarket adapter that didn't work for you... and blaming the CAMERA??? Please...

ANYONE could do the same mods on very cheap parts with a bargain Dremel copy from Harbor Freight, and I'm sure the folks offering aftermarket parts will modify their designs to be just as sturdy! I looked at the ones posted, and there were some flaws in the design that are easily remedied - it is NOT rocket science. There were good cheap adapters for the old AiShoe as well. It's quite doable, if one decides to!

I bought exactly ONE cable to adapt between the MULTI and the old A/V remote (which uses a LANC protocol, BTW - it's a "language" not an INTERFACE). Would you prefer that all audio and video equipment used 1/4" plugs because that was once "the norm"?? Interfaces change, new interfaces are developed, so you have to buy or adapt a few things... it's NOT the end of the world.


In the end, we won't know for sure how well the new camera performs until more people get hands on the FZ1000 - I'll be the first to say I prefer CHEAPER... IF it actually performs... but the samples had flaws I wouldn't live with, they are consistent with my past experience with Pannys, and honestly it bummed me out to see things that should have been "fixed" or "better".

I like the Panasonic LCD implementation, the extra zoom couldn't hurt, and 4K under $900... yep it sounds great... the sample video posted, upon close inspection, not so much. "Fine"... perhaps for some, but left me unimpressed.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:37 PM   #70
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

guys let's all calm down and try to analyze the situation instead.

there is no doubt that the marketing departments are working hard to design the future of video. The best offer comes from the GH4. but there are no lenses with servo zoom . only the standard zoom and the 45-175
we need the entire focal in one lens. They know that (of course). But wait to settle the marketing first.
Now they're coming up with the AX100 and the RX10 (30min.limit) and the FZ1000 (again 30min limit) , ea50 (idiotic servo zoom, poor low light, intentional, of course)
it's ALL intentional
the AX1 with no face detection. Intentional again.
Never seen before, such an impressive marketing in this segment, while we still need a decent camera for the next years.

is it frustrating or it's just me?

there is ALWAYS something important missing, A L W A Y S.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:51 PM   #71
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
The five-axis "thing" does not work at all in 4K, according to Panasonic. There is no question. Thus, there is a real question at this point if in 4K the Panasonic stabilization will be superior. And who knows about focus speed - it is surely worse on the Panasonic GH4 (with their latest lenses) than on the Sony AX100 (I have both, and like both). I would doubt very much that will be different for this cheaper alternative. :)
Yeah that's what confuses me, there seems to be mixed messages out there about AF and OIS. I only film 4k now so how it performs in 4k mode is all that matters to me. Some say Panasonic AF is better, some say it's worse, so who knows what it really is. Guess I have to wait for some reviews. The 30 minute record limit doesn't affect me, the lens being not as wide in 4k mode does bother me though as would battery life. I fear with these little picture cameras that you have to spend double their price on more accessories to get acceptable battery life from them in the field when used for video. I think that's my biggest fear with picture cameras used for video. I don't have staff, I do everything myself so I tend to forget things sometimes so I'm almost certain I'd lose some shots just from battery running out while recording on cameras like the FZ1000, A7S, etc. I like that the AX100 can run an entire shoot on one V100 battery, just gives me one less thing to worry about. The AX100's AF is good but failed me sometimes on firmware 1.0 hence why I was curious about the FZ1000's AF. Maybe 2.0 firmware has fixed some issues though...but so far there's too many mixed messages for me to be able to determine if Panasonic's AF is better or worse although everyone's use varies. Mine is primarily indoors with medium light levels, the sensor tends to be in the 9db to 12db range so that could be why AF sometimes doesn't quite work right but I'm limited to the lighting gear that I have so it is what it is.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:56 PM   #72
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
The five-axis "thing" does not work at all in 4K, according to Panasonic. There is no question. Thus, there is a real question at this point if in 4K the Panasonic stabilization will be superior. And who knows about focus speed - it is surely worse on the Panasonic GH4 (with their latest lenses) than on the Sony AX100 (I have both, and like both). I would doubt very much that will be different for this cheaper alternative. :)
I think this is what is creating a little too much "drama" - the FACTS (AKA "truth") are out there - the MSRP is $899 (a tad more than 800, thank you, but still very good!), the 5 axis stabilization isn't going to work in 4K (seems like there were a couple of "gotchas" for buyers, like needing really expensive/fast cards for 4K).

FACT: There are options for remote zoom (etc.) on the AX100, contrary to incorrect statements being tossed around. I should hope there is one for the FZ1000 as well, all cameras SHOULD have it for "serious" use.

FACT: There are ways to make the shoe on the AX100 perfectly usable with less effort than has been expended here complaining about supposed problems...

FACT: Users are not having AF and stabilization issues with the AX100, IF they understand how the camera operates - Sony has already issued a firmware update, I haven't had any problems, but will likely install it - Sony updates, while few and far between, are typically trouble free, and usually make minor improvements. I've found both AF and stabilization to be just fine, and better than expected in some ways!

The AX100 is a darn fine VIDEO camera, the FZ1000 is a consumer level (OK, high end consumer) still camera that shoots video. The advantages of the former are many, the limitations of the latter are perhaps annoying, but not insurmountable.

Spewing unsupportable complaints about a camera that are without basis (other than personal biases, which are showing) really don't belong in the discussion.

And rabid speculation about a camera that isn't even out yet is ridiculous - I'm with the other Dave (Dixon) that we will need to see what this camera can do in proper hands. The unfortunate fact is many of us are seeing the same thing in the promotional pieces and are less than impressed. These are Panasonics OWN promotional bits, so I think we are safe to guess that the results are "accurate".


EVERY camera of late seems to get slammed because some incompetent "early reviewer" doesn't know how to RUN A CAMERA!! And swings it wildly around only to complain of skew and RS... etc. etc... 4K adds the opportunity for myriad screw ups when dealing with post/output/display... I've replicated most of them in the last month while "tuning" a computer system to handle 4k!!

I'll be watching to see if users have better results than the promotional videos, I have my doubts, again from experience with certain "Panasonic specific" image traits (fleshtones, and macroblocking issues in low light/shadow areas, both "deal killers" for me), but if it's a good cheap tool, I might even buy one...
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Old June 29th, 2014, 09:57 PM   #73
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Having shot with still cameras with 30 minute limits, I wouldn't stress it that much...
Dave, in my case it is a big deal, since the vast majority of my work are soccer games (45min +45 min)
Quote:
@Anthony - I modded MY OWN mounts, there is no worry about shorting (can't happen, as I discovered on closer examination of the shoe before modding my "feet").
Dave, it used to happen to me several times on a SR11 , Be careful, seriously. In case turn off the camera and remove the battery for few seconds. It should reset once ON again.

The lanc is a protocol, the commands are simple codes sent via RS232 (com, the good old serial port of the MS-DOS puters LOL) They make it look SO complicated because they have to sell the gadgets to make us believe that's a BIG DEAL.

Sony gave permission to Canon to use the protocol, but not to Panasonic. So Panasonic had to come up with something different - 2 different ports, 2.5mm and 3.5mm adding iris but excluding the zoom speeds from the implementation.
In the end we are the ones paying for this idiotic war when it was so simple and easy.
and adding cables to cables is plain ridiculous. I had 3 cables for my SR11 I remember, all lost, one by one. All the remotes available come with a 2.5mm . As I remember only 1 particular model from Sony has the 10-pin terminal, but even that one comes with the 2.5mm as well. So not even SONY believes in the 10-pin standard, imagine the multiport , idiotic as the name that carries.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #74
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
guys let's all calm down and try to analyze the situation instead.

there is no doubt that the marketing departments are working hard to design the future of video. The best offer comes from the GH4. but there are no lenses with servo zoom . only the standard zoom and the 45-175
we need the entire focal in one lens. They know that (of course). But wait to settle the marketing first.
Now they're coming up with the AX100 and the RX10 (30min.limit) and the FZ1000 (again 30min limit) , ea50 (idiotic servo zoom, poor low light, intentional, of course)
it's ALL intentional
the AX1 with no face detection. Intentional again.
Never seen before, such an impressive marketing in this segment, while we still need a decent camera for the next years.

is it frustrating or it's just me?

there is ALWAYS something important missing, A L W A Y S.
A: This is life on the bleeding edge, deal with it, or buy older stuff.
B: Features don't always work as "expected", see A
C: When things don't work as expected, you figure out a workaround.
D: If there's no workaround, presuming nobody dies, we wait for the next product announcement with fingers crossed...
E: Calm down and remove the tinfoil hat, the manufacturers aren't spending time conspiring against us (or at least I THINK they aren't... maybe time to buy some Reynolds Wrap!!!! <wink>


The AX100 has been working great for me and many others, the RX10 needed to have 4K, before Panny came along and "stole the thunder", something likely rectified in the near future... though the omission in the RX100M3 was notable. I can do anything I'd like to with these "imperfect" cameras, as is... good enough for me.
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Old June 29th, 2014, 10:30 PM   #75
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
A: This is life on the bleeding edge, deal with it, or buy older stuff.
B: Features don't always work as "expected", see A
C: When things don't work as expected, you figure out a workaround.
D: If there's no workaround, presuming nobody dies, we wait for the next product announcement with fingers crossed...
E: Calm down and remove the tinfoil hat, the manufacturers aren't spending time conspiring against us (or at least I THINK they aren't... maybe time to buy some Reynolds Wrap!!!! <wink>


The AX100 has been working great for me and many others, the RX10 needed to have 4K, before Panny came along and "stole the thunder", something likely rectified in the near future... though the omission in the RX100M3 was notable. I can do anything I'd like to with these "imperfect" cameras, as is... good enough for me.
talking about older stuff: you made me remember stuff from my past with that ridiculous proprietary shoe. Something I didn't want to remember... can't believe that in 2014 you have to settle with THAT

LOL


and the way I see it the marketing people with panasonic and sony are indeed driving us crazy, if you don't see it then know that I do. Greed runs at dangerous levels in the video , never seen before running at that level.
the strategy has changed: before it was something more with the competitor to win : now is all about limiting the cameras. Do you honestly believe that it was by "accident" that the FZ1000 (perfect camera doing almost everything right) HAD to come up with that 30min. limit? Remember that Panasonic was the first breaking the wall (of the dslr for video) offering the GH1 able to shoot for hours. The others didn't like it, Im positive about it. They all continued to limit their cameras. Now Panasonic seems to have said "yes sir" to the oligopoly. Why? because they are planning to restore the 5K dollars and up segment for pro-sumer video, that's why.
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