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Old June 30th, 2014, 01:37 AM   #76
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
Dave, in my case it is a big deal, since the vast majority of my work are soccer games (45min +45 min)


Dave, it used to happen to me several times on a SR11 , Be careful, seriously. In case turn off the camera and remove the battery for few seconds. It should reset once ON again.

The lanc is a protocol, the commands are simple codes sent via RS232 (com, the good old serial port of the MS-DOS puters LOL) They make it look SO complicated because they have to sell the gadgets to make us believe that's a BIG DEAL.

Sony gave permission to Canon to use the protocol, but not to Panasonic. So Panasonic had to come up with something different - 2 different ports, 2.5mm and 3.5mm adding iris but excluding the zoom speeds from the implementation.
In the end we are the ones paying for this idiotic war when it was so simple and easy.
and adding cables to cables is plain ridiculous. I had 3 cables for my SR11 I remember, all lost, one by one. All the remotes available come with a 2.5mm . As I remember only 1 particular model from Sony has the 10-pin terminal, but even that one comes with the 2.5mm as well. So not even SONY believes in the 10-pin standard, imagine the multiport , idiotic as the name that carries.

I can't imagine there are no "lulls" in the action where you can "double punch" during a 30 minute span... used that approach and haven't missed anything yet... just double punch in a section you'd edit out anyway! Problem solved.

The LANC protocol is just a method to control the camera - implementation varies widely, even within a manufacturers different cameras (well, Sony at least!). It shouldn't be an issue for a manufacturer to figure out an alternate method, you know, like how Ford and Chevy and Chrysler have similar features, but different cars...

Sounds like you've had bad luck with adapters, but I'm VERY cautious, and can tell you that Sony prevented any potential issues in the MiShoe design... you'd have to try REALLY hard to short anything or cause problems... the AiS that was on the SR11 was likely different, but I've got PLASTIC shoe adapters that work just fine... I'll admit that the MULTI USB is an oddball way to combine two functions into one "new" connector, and I'd rate it as far from "ideal". You've got the 5 pin USB, and then 10 "multi" pins buried deeper so the only activate with a "special" plug!?!? I guess it saved some space or something!


I know you like to come up with "facts" out of thin air and speculation, but I can tell you that the "10 pin standard" goes back a LONG way. Sony has used a variation of it in the AiShoe since the HC1, the 10 pin A/V port since the HC3, and now in the MULTI shoe and MULTI USB port.

Although there are variations in implementation (such as the current inexplicable differences between Handycams and Cybershots, which gives me much consternation, and I still hope to find the "hack"), the "10 pin" grouping has been present for well over a decade!! Hardly a flash in the pan! It is poorly documented, unless you have the service manuals, and even then it's a "reverse engineering" puzzle! The pins and functions (and especially the "trigger" mechanisms) are a "tad" mysterious, and I think we'd have to kidnap a Sony engineer to get the whole story! But you CANNOT say Sony hasn't had a specific interface methodology with 10 multipurpose pins, they have... for over a decade.

HERE is the "rub", I still have the email from when I asked Sony about the LANC interface on the A/V... US customer service had ZERO knowledge that it even existed (the AV2 had not yet been released). IOW, there couldn't have been much of a conspiracy, they just never told anyone the function was even THERE!! Much like the earlier discussion about the "Panasonic mystery port" <wink>. It could be there, but sufficiently undocumented that CS has "no idea"!! Part of the problem is that only a SMALL portion of camera enthusiasts would even know what a "LANC" port was for! Most people will NEVER use a remote or even contemplate that they might really NEED one... There are a few niche uses where it's considered a necessity, but for the vast majority of users, it's a "who cares" feature. Of course now there is more of an expectation that you can use your smart phone as a remote... such as it is.


And, looping back around.... at least from "internet legend", that 30 minute limit is due to some obscure EU law that taxes camcorders (that record OVER 30 minutes) at a higher rate than cameras... No reason that "they" couldn't release region specific firmware, but it probably is just easier to avoid attracting the interest or ire of government and regulatory authorities... SO, no conspiracy, just STUPID archaic outdated laws... with Global commerce, it is FAR too easy to "grey market" unrestricted cameras into the EU to bypass the taxes, so I'd imagine that it would be HIGHLY discouraged!
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Old June 30th, 2014, 06:39 AM   #77
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
talking about older stuff: you made me remember stuff from my past with that ridiculous proprietary shoe.
.
I like that shoe and use a Sony wireless mic attached there, It can give 2ch or 5.1 audio so with the latter you get something like 6 tracks of audio - 2 from the wireless mic up on the podium or whereever, plus it mixes in the 4 tracks that the camera produces so in post you can pick the cleanest tracks or all
I use a vello bracket for mounting other things (and cameras even)
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Old June 30th, 2014, 07:17 AM   #78
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Spewing unsupportable complaints about a camera that are without basis (other than personal biases, which are showing) really don't belong in the discussion.
Dave, I agree with both you and Mark, as the points you've both made are both factual and on target. Unfortunately it became obvious this thread had taken a turn toward the absurd, as so many internet threads do, when Anthony said this:

"And that should tell a lot about the fans upset because the toy got ridiculed by the competition at a fraction of the cost with more and better features."

And here I never realized we were using a toy. What more can you say? Have fun guys, I'm outta here.
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Old June 30th, 2014, 07:50 AM   #79
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Viewing the video from the lumix fz1000 and ax1000 in 4k: The Seiki SE39UY04 39 Class 4K Ultra HD 120Hz LED TV is under 400cad at the moment. I was hoping Vizio would have their 4k tv out but don't see it from here, What else is there in the under 500 price range?
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Old June 30th, 2014, 07:59 AM   #80
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

I"m trying to understand the field of view this camera provides, I read it has a 35mm equivalent focal length of 25-400mm. I know my Sony cx730 starts at 26,5mm and the ax100 starts at 29mm.

The reason why I like my cx730's is that 26,5mm is pretty wide and makes it a very useful wideangle lens, the FZ1000 starts at 25mm which is even wider or should I take a cropfactor (like the gh4 has) into account as well when comparing the field of view to my cx730 when the lens is at it's widest?
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Old June 30th, 2014, 08:08 AM   #81
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
I"m trying to understand the field of view this camera provides, I read it has a 35mm equivalent focal length of 25-400mm. I know my Sony cx730 starts at 26,5mm and the ax100 starts at 29mm.

The reason why I like my cx730's is that 26,5mm is pretty wide and makes it a very useful wideangle lens, the FZ1000 starts at 25mm which is even wider or should I take a cropfactor (like the gh4 has) into account as well when comparing the field of view to my cx730 when the lens is at it's widest?
Any time they put the lens in 35mm equivalent, it should be apples to apples, or at least very close to it, since they're relating it to the old standard of 35mm/FF photography.

But as we know thus far with the fz1000, you are getting an additional crop factor when in 4k mode, bumping it to a 37mm equivalant. not very wide
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Old June 30th, 2014, 08:22 AM   #82
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Thx Darren, exactly what I wanted to know and indeed much less usefull, does the same apply for the ax100 in 4k mode?
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Old June 30th, 2014, 09:02 AM   #83
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
The LANC protocol is just a method to control the camera - implementation varies widely, even within a manufacturers different cameras (well, Sony at least!). It shouldn't be an issue for a manufacturer to figure out an alternate method, you know, like how Ford and Chevy and Chrysler have similar features, but different cars...
and you missed the point again: it doesn't matter what kind of port you have, what really matters is what kind of remote you can attach. Varizoom, manfrotto, libec all are 2.5mm
got it now?

the sony proprietary remote for that absurd port is a toy, not really to be used for a real coverage.

now may I ask what remote are you using? I mean right now, and how many patch cables you need?

and the plastic adapter to the shoe to hold heavy stuff is like calling for troubles, absurd and plain ridiculous and brings back bad ancient memories

you can turn it the way you like but still is ridiculous. And the "proprietary" concept serves one purpose and one purpose only: TO SELL the proprietary accessories. What else?

about the time limit I agree that it was (originally) a way to save taxes in EU , but then it became an excuse to limit the offer and save the sales of the more expensive ones. look closer: what camera you can get right now with 4K, no time limit and a decent zoom and face detection? None. We all need that camera, aren't we?
They are still deciding where to go and how much they can make us pay. And again the way they (all) are doing it is disgusting. little tricks, limitations here and there, all scientifically calculated.
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Old June 30th, 2014, 10:03 AM   #84
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Thx Darren, exactly what I wanted to know and indeed much less usefull, does the same apply for the ax100 in 4k mode?
No, not with regular OIS stabilization - no additional crop factor for 4K for the Ax100. Sony samples from the entire sensor in 4K mode. Only in "Active" stabilization mode, Sony crops and then there is a crop factor.

The fact that the fz1000 has an additional crop factor in 4K mode tells us that the camera is taking a crop of the sensor, and not sampling from the entire sensor, does it not? And thus the Sony 4K image will be better (less noise, more resolution) than that from the fz1000, no?
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Old June 30th, 2014, 10:41 AM   #85
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

Thx Mark for that confirmation as I only wanted to know if there was any cropfactor in 4K. So that 29mm (35mm equivalent) stays 29mm in 4K, that's good to know. I would have preferred wider but 29mm (I have a hdv camera here that starts wide from 29mm so I know how that will look like) will do fine, 37mm otoh does limit shooting in narrower spaces, too bad, otherwise that fz1000 could have been a nice B-camera for my purpose.
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Old June 30th, 2014, 10:43 AM   #86
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Mark Rosenzweig View Post
The fact that the fz1000 has an additional crop factor in 4K mode tells us that the camera is taking a crop of the sensor, and not sampling from the entire sensor, does it not? And thus the Sony 4K image will be better (less noise, more resolution) than that from the fz1000, no?
Not sure but do you want me to answer that? Sorry to ask but I don't understand what this has to do with my question?
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Old June 30th, 2014, 11:27 AM   #87
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Thx Mark for that confirmation as I only wanted to know if there was any cropfactor in 4K. So that 29mm (35mm equivalent) stays 29mm in 4K, that's good to know. I would have preferred wider but 29mm (I have a hdv camera here that starts wide from 29mm so I know how that will look like) will do fine, 37mm otoh does limit shooting in narrower spaces, too bad, otherwise that fz1000 could have been a nice B-camera for my purpose.
That's exactly the same issue I'm having with this camera. I've been thinking about it as a backup camera but since I only film in 4k means that it's basically 37mm at its widest. At 29mm the AX100 isn't quite wide enough for me and has forced me to alter some shots but it's been workable, but at 37mm I'm not sure I could make it workable. Then again since it would be a backup camera, I guess 37mm footage would be better than no footage at all in case my AX100 broke down at a shoot, hence why I'm still contemplating it. Now I'm just trying to find out how it's AF and OIS compares to the Sony, but so far opinions are conflicting on that alas leaving me in a bit of a fog as to what the reality is.
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Old June 30th, 2014, 11:58 AM   #88
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Now I'm just trying to find out how it's AF and OIS compares to the Sony, but so far opinions are conflicting on that alas leaving me in a bit of a fog as to what the reality is.
Such a question will only result in my camera is better then yours comments, best is to ask a fz1000 owner to shoot some out- and indoor shots and let the autofocus and ois do it's thing and post that on vimeo or youtube, I believe I have seen such a video with a autofocus test for the ax100 on this forum.
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Old June 30th, 2014, 05:57 PM   #89
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
and you missed the point again: it doesn't matter what kind of port you have, what really matters is what kind of remote you can attach. Varizoom, manfrotto, libec all are 2.5mm
got it now?

the sony proprietary remote for that absurd port is a toy, not really to be used for a real coverage.

now may I ask what remote are you using? I mean right now, and how many patch cables you need?

and the plastic adapter to the shoe to hold heavy stuff is like calling for troubles, absurd and plain ridiculous and brings back bad ancient memories

you can turn it the way you like but still is ridiculous. And the "proprietary" concept serves one purpose and one purpose only: TO SELL the proprietary accessories. What else?

about the time limit I agree that it was (originally) a way to save taxes in EU , but then it became an excuse to limit the offer and save the sales of the more expensive ones. look closer: what camera you can get right now with 4K, no time limit and a decent zoom and face detection? None. We all need that camera, aren't we?
They are still deciding where to go and how much they can make us pay. And again the way they (all) are doing it is disgusting. little tricks, limitations here and there, all scientifically calculated.

I have heard no indication that that EU law has been repealed... have you? If it hasn't, it's not an "excuse", it's a real life business decision dictated by unfortunate realities... government silliness does that sometimes!

My shoe adapter for the AX100 is 100% solid METAL, cannot short anything, and is as sturdy as possible, I presume the MiShoe is part of a metal subframe, so I'm fairly confident in the way my adapter works! I only referred to older plastic adapters for the AiS.

The RM-AV2 works just fine, with the AVM1 adapter. I believe the VPR1 also works, maybe not as "fancy" (or expensive) as your "2.5mm" ones, but certainly workable.

As I stated earlier, the LANC remote "niche" market is relatively quite small, ANY manufacturer can easily attach a different plug and mod their device to work with a Sony "10 pin" port of whichever flavor. Why don't you go to them and complain that they don't? If there's this HUGE PROFIT to be made in selling LANC controllers, I'm sure they will be thrilled you brought it to their attention... or not.

When there was a need for LANC on the A/V port, adapters and LANC controllers sprung up to meet the niche market demands once the "hack" was reverse engineered (something I had a hand in at the time). I'm fine with the MULTI to A/V adapter for now, it provides all the functions I need with the remote I already had, at least for the AX100!

I WOULD like to sort out why it DOES NOT work with Cybershots... I rather prefer the tiny AV2 to the VPR1! But that's somewhat apples and oranges... Sony isn't even 100% consistent "in house"!
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Old June 30th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #90
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Re: Panasonic LUMIX FZ1000 announced with 4K recording

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
I have heard no indication that that EU law has been repealed... have you? If it hasn't, it's not an "excuse", it's a real life business decision dictated by unfortunate realities... government silliness does that sometimes!

My shoe adapter for the AX100 is 100% solid METAL, cannot short anything, and is as sturdy as possible, I presume the MiShoe is part of a metal subframe, so I'm fairly confident in the way my adapter works! I only referred to older plastic adapters for the AiS.

The RM-AV2 works just fine, with the AVM1 adapter. I believe the VPR1 also works, maybe not as "fancy" (or expensive) as your "2.5mm" ones, but certainly workable.

As I stated earlier, the LANC remote "niche" market is relatively quite small, ANY manufacturer can easily attach a different plug and mod their device to work with a Sony "10 pin" port of whichever flavor. Why don't you go to them and complain that they don't? If there's this HUGE PROFIT to be made in selling LANC controllers, I'm sure they will be thrilled you brought it to their attention... or not.

When there was a need for LANC on the A/V port, adapters and LANC controllers sprung up to meet the niche market demands once the "hack" was reverse engineered (something I had a hand in at the time). I'm fine with the MULTI to A/V adapter for now, it provides all the functions I need with the remote I already had, at least for the AX100!

I WOULD like to sort out why it DOES NOT work with Cybershots... I rather prefer the tiny AV2 to the VPR1! But that's somewhat apples and oranges... Sony isn't even 100% consistent "in house"!
Dear Dave
I bought the AX100 this morning and the multi adapter cable (avm1 I think) and none of my remotes work (varizoom and libec). BUT the vivitar works! And it has 8 constant speeds +1 variable (of the zoom) plus on-off (camera) , on-screen info on lcd on/off, on-screen info on hdmi monitor on/off, photo , start/stop rec and focus (I have to double check the focus but it seems to be working)
So the whole protocol is in there. I was about to return the camera but then the Vivitar saved it. If you want to get that 20bucks remote just let me know and I'll tell you how to make it (much) better, with no "clicks" zooming. The slowest speed for the zxoom is fairly slow and the fastest is lighting fast. then there are 9 speeds to choose, so no problem. The camera is impressive, but a bit dark in low light (but I just got it.. so it's too soon to report)
Back to the vivitar and since it's the only one with on/off switch may be that the other two (without it) set the multi port off by default. Again "maybe", anyway they don't work so be it... not going crazy to find out. The vivitar is good enough and the control of the zoom speed from the remote is priceless. So so far I'm good.
Quote:
Why don't you go to them and complain that they don't? If there's this HUGE PROFIT to be made in selling LANC controllers, I'm sure they will be thrilled you brought it to their attention... or not.
care to explain that sarcasm up there? the remote or lanc is important, Dave. You put the camera on a tripod and zoom with it, shooting sports like I do is mandatory (no other way to produce a decent coverage without it. I will use the XA20 on a crane and the remote is again important. What's so funny if I wanted to make sure that I had that option? I don't get it. After all you don't work for Sony and you are a customer like me, no? jeeeezzzz

Last edited by Anthony Lelli; July 1st, 2014 at 12:48 AM.
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