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Old December 2nd, 2007, 09:15 PM   #16
Obstreperous Rex
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane View Post
Somewhere you posted a link to an article you did on the differences of CCD vs CMOS imagers and it's affect on images (I can't find it quickly) - care to post that link here so people can see exactly what the EX1's limitations are?
Better yet, perhaps Barry can simply post the article itself right here in its entirety-- that would be ideal.

Otherwise... http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...=Google+Search
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 01:05 AM   #17
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The article is about rolling shutters in general, and the footage examples are from various rolling-shutter cameras. However, I have not had a chance to explore the EX1 for what limits its rolling shutter may cause.

Rolling shutter issues are potentially disastrous, or they may be a non-issue, it depends on what type of shooting scenarios you'll be putting the camera to. Offhand, I think kaku's proposed usage of strapping it to a mountain bike would be about the most awful scenario for any rolling-shutter camera. If the EX1 performs well in that type of environment, it'd be reasonably safe to say that Sony would have "beaten" the rolling shutter. The kind of vibration that a mountain bike would encounter would likely expose the worst shortcomings of a rolling shutter. (Kaku, have you tried an HV20 or HG10 or Sony 1-chip HDV camera on your mountain bikes? It would be very interesting to see how one of those performs, vs. an EX1, to see how much improvement Sony may have made in the EX1.)

The other suspect scenario for a rolling shutter that people are likely to encounter is flashes/strobelights. Shooting a nightclub, a red carpet event, a boxing match or other sporting event where a camera flash significantly illuminates the subject (i.e., not a football game, but something up close); a wedding reception, or a press conference... those could all be affected by the way a rolling shutter works.

Another potential trouble spot for a rolling shutter would be discontinuous lighting sources, such as slow-refresh HMI or fluorescents. Those can cause annoying flickering and banding in the video; Canon warns of "black lines" flickering in the video in their owner's manual.

Finally, there's match moving for motion tracking -- Russ Andersson (maker of SynthEyes) highly urges any FX professional to avoid all rolling-shutter CMOS cameras because of this.

Now -- how many of these potential scenarios are actual issues with the EX1? I don't know, I haven't used one yet. In the article I posted, I collected various samples from different shooters and different cameras. The EX1 wasn't out yet, so it isn't shown or represented yet.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 01:38 AM   #18
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Barry,

I did onboard and hand-held while I'm riding with HV20 and HV10 and they are awful. The video becomes really wobbly. So, I guess that is from the rolling shutter.

My friend did the flash light test at InterBEE on EX1 and he saw the rolling shutter effect present.

My other concern is the normal shooting condition, even with a tripod but panning with the speed of downhill mountainbiker in front of really edgy and complicated back ground, trees and grass especially. MPEG breaks up bad in that situation.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 02:23 AM   #19
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When testing the camera for rolling shutter affects, can you see them while shooting or while looking at the camera when not recording - Or do you need to look at the recorded footage

I tried very rapid pans for example and tried just bouncing the camera around a bit and it looked OK, but I didn't actually look at footage.

I did see some footage going over the SF Bay Bridge looking past the cables from the front windshield - that was pretty fast movement and I saw no breakup. Maybe a teeny bit of bending, but that may just have been the lens at wide zoom. Certainly nothing disturbing. I don't know if that's a reasonable test for rolling shutter.

Getting a bar from flash or strobe might be acceptable to me but I would need to look at it to know how bad it was.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 02:44 AM   #20
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To see the rolling shutter effects, you definitely need to look into the footage. Looking at the camera's LCD or viewfinder display won't do you good. Because the human eye is just too adaptable - can you see the flicker of a fluorescent tube (for example)?
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 09:07 AM   #21
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No camera is better or worse.... just different

How boring would it be if everyone used the same camera? Rolling shutter, Bit rate, ect... these are not hindrances. They are simply characteristics. Its like drawing with a pen or a pencil. Maybe Im just a simple country boy from a horse farm in Mississippi working a dream job in New York.(I am) And maybe I get to play with cameras all day and talk to people like you guys. (I do) But, I still cant see any one manufacturer being the end all of the motion picture story telling regardless of how many bells and whistles it comes with. If that happens I may get bored and start shooting with an old Oatmeal box camera:)
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 09:17 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Gregger Jones View Post
I still cant see any one manufacturer being the end all of the motion picture story telling regardless of how many bells and whistles it comes with.
You've just summed up the overall philosophy of this site in one sentence. Happy to have you here, Gregger!
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 09:40 AM   #23
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My concept is to combine affordable HD cams to achieve making great video (some day) of what I want to express, so the goal is to find out which does what good and which does what bad. That's all.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 10:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaku Ito View Post
My concept is to combine affordable HD cams to achieve making great video (some day) of what I want to express, so the goal is to find out which does what good and which does what bad. That's all.
That's exactly the point, and what I try to get across. Know what the product does. Know what it can't do. We're entering a phase where shots that we used to be able to take for granted, all of a sudden aren't possible, because the technology is changing. So you have to know what the technology does, and what it can't do, in order to be properly forearmed and forewarned and go into your shooting situations with your eyes wide open.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 10:45 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaku Ito View Post
I did onboard and hand-held while I'm riding with HV20 and HV10 and they are awful. The video becomes really wobbly. So, I guess that is from the rolling shutter.
Correct. That's what we're concerned about, because there are some types of shots that a rolling shutter can interfere with and, depending on the severity of the rolling shutter effect, can actually ruin the shot. You encountered it. The question people are asking is -- does the EX1 improve on this any? And I think you'd be a great test case -- you've put every camera on the market to the test, so if you can get an EX1 and try the same thing I think we'd all be very interested to know whether the reported improvement in the rolling shutter of the EX1 renders the concerns to be a non-issue, or whether it's still something we need to be aware of.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 12:02 PM   #26
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i shot lots of video using an HV10 on a car mount for b-roll of a triathlon broadcast, and i found that it was pretty clean. this had to be shot using the auto focus mode, because of the nature of it--we were just tracking significant parts of the bike course. so we had to make cuts where the lighting shifted, but it was just for continuity anyway, so it had no impact on our project. but it wasn't wobbly at all--held up quite well, i would say. so i wonder what it is that you're seeing that is "wobbly," kaku. wobbly as in juddering?

and just for information's sake, i know you have tested lots of cameras under these conditions. which were the hardest to break?
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 06:56 PM   #27
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I put it on manual focus every time I do onboard.
Meryem, what is different in my onboard situation is the small vibrations from the road surface. I was thinking that was MPEG thing, but after I studies what Barry explained about rolling shutter then figured it out.

I can look for the footage.
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Old December 3rd, 2007, 09:25 PM   #28
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if you don't mind, i'd be very interested. we shoot a lot of motion--not that extreme speed-wise, but definitely some bike-mounted stuff, some skiing, triathlon...and we have a few more of those sorts of projects are in the pipeline. i'm very interested in seeing what the EX1 resolve that other cams don't. it helps to know what to look for, to compare to....
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Old December 9th, 2007, 10:22 PM   #29
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What do you think this is? Rolling shutter issue?

After shooting around late at night with EX1, felt amazed with the low light situation (the best ever after various affordable cams), I thought this one one of the shot that demonstrates the amazing capabilities of EX1 with 1080/24p over 30 frame and the light sensitivities...., but I found out in the post, there is something wrong when a man with bag crossed in front of the camera. The shape of the taxi behind gets distorted.

Anyone can suggest to make it not happen?

http://web.mac.com/kakuito/KakugyoBl...1_study_1.html
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Old December 9th, 2007, 10:39 PM   #30
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Hi Kaku, you're asking a question about the Sony EX1 but this is the Panasonic P2 forum. So I've copied your post over to our Sony XDCAM EX forum, here is the link: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109876
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