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Old December 10th, 2007, 03:51 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane View Post
It's not a fair comparison to put a DSLR and a video camera's LCD head-to-head. Digital still cameras have 10x the resolution of any HD camera today (excepting Viper, RED etc) hence they absolutely need ultra-res on the LCD to check focus.

We all agree the HVX/HPX and other Panny cams with the flip-out LCD need greater resolution and hopefully after 2 years of whining about it the Panny-gods will listen to us.
Robert, it is fair. Even my Canon G9 has a better LCD than the HVX. And that's a 399 camera- How much can the LCD cost?
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Old December 11th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #17
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Believe me, I hear you Sergio. I own the same camera and the LCD is gorgeous.

You'd think, that since these high-res LCD's have been out for years now and *none* of the video camera manufacturers use them for their video cameras (why doesn't Canon use that same LCD technology for their own H1, for example?) I can only surmise that there must be a technological reason rather than monetary that keeps them from using these LCD's.

There may also be a human psychological factor involved here too; since these high-res LCD's would make imagery appear unusually sharp the actual output would never live up to what people see in those high-res LCD's.

Off topic: That G9 is an amazing camera; I shot this macro with it - the original camera raw is huge and gorgeous!
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Old December 11th, 2007, 10:35 PM   #18
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Believe me, I hear you Sergio. I own the same camera and the LCD is gorgeous.

You'd think, that since these high-res LCD's have been out for years now and *none* of the video camera manufacturers use them for their video cameras (why doesn't Canon use that same LCD technology for their own H1, for example?) I can only surmise that there must be a technological reason rather than monetary that keeps them from using these LCD's.

There may also be a human psychological factor involved here too; since these high-res LCD's would make imagery appear unusually sharp the actual output would never live up to what people see in those high-res LCD's.

Off topic: That G9 is an amazing camera; I shot this macro with it - the original camera raw is huge and gorgeous!
Off topic: I hear you, Robert. That camera is so sharp that my girl hates it! It shows wrinkles on her face that she didn't even know where there... :)

Back to the LCD's... You know, i actually followed that line of tought for a while. But I just look at my Iphone and PSP (specially the PSP), and I just can't find a reason for these screens to not be implemented on thse cameras. Again, these are 299 to 399 gadgets that display excelent video.

The only possible reason that comes up to mind is battery life. But with lithium batteries more and more powerful nowadays- a Sony 970 battery lasts about 5 to 6 hours- I wouldn't mind compromising this to 3 hours if it would solve my much more critical focusing issue. Owning 3 or four camera batteries is a much more affordable and acceptable proposition than an investment in a 2000 or 1000 dollar external LCD that is heavy and takes out the mobility of the camera!

I did invest in the 2000 dollar monitor, though. I went for the panny. Since i was buying an external, i figured i might as well buy one that would work for the future. And the waveform feature is excelent, as well as the essential focus in red. If it was just a bit less heavy, tough...
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Last edited by Sergio Perez; December 12th, 2007 at 03:06 AM.
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Old December 12th, 2007, 11:55 AM   #19
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The other thing you could look at is refresh rate. It's one thing to show a still image on a screen, but when you're pushing 30fps is there going to be motion blur added by a low pixel refresh on the lcd. It might be that high resolution, high refresh is highly difficult and expensive.

If you look at Panasonic Consumer, and their comparison of plasma technology to LCD technology, they point out how effective resolution on LCD's drops in high action due to motion blurring. Now that would be nasty trying to find focus on that high res screen.

Just guessing, but that might be a reason.
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Old December 12th, 2007, 11:10 PM   #20
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Offload the battery's weight from the Panny's monitor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
I did invest in the 2000 dollar monitor, though. I went for the panny. Since i was buying an external, i figured i might as well buy one that would work for the future. And the waveform feature is excelent, as well as the essential focus in red. If it was just a bit less heavy, tough...
If you offload the weight of the AB battery and use the LH80's external power supply cord to connect the AB battery to it, you can clip the AB battery to your tripod, trouser belt, or elsewhere - instead of putting it on the Panny LH80 - where weight becomes an issue.
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Old December 12th, 2007, 11:10 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jeff Heywood View Post
The other thing you could look at is refresh rate. It's one thing to show a still image on a screen, but when you're pushing 30fps is there going to be motion blur added by a low pixel refresh on the lcd. It might be that high resolution, high refresh is highly difficult and expensive.

If you look at Panasonic Consumer, and their comparison of plasma technology to LCD technology, they point out how effective resolution on LCD's drops in high action due to motion blurring. Now that would be nasty trying to find focus on that high res screen.

Just guessing, but that might be a reason.
Jeff, PSP and Iphone mantain resolution quite well in motion...

EDIT- Tingsern Wong, I'm planning on going the belt way. However, for handhelld, I think i should invest on something on the lines of a shoulder support, or I feel it will just be too heavy. Actually, can you post a picture of how you mount the monitor for Handheld? I'm trying to configure my handheld setup and really would like suggestions for this. The Panasonic HK guys suggested me a SLIK 32 to support itself on the top handle. any better suggestion?
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Old December 12th, 2007, 11:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
PSP and Iphone mantain resolution quite well in motion...
PSP is something like 480-272? Pretty low res, especially for trying to monitor HD.

I don't know at all. I just know it is a big problem for many LCD computer monitors and LCD televisions. To get a high response rate LCD HDTV it is a significant premium. In a critical application like a camera LCD I would think monitor induced blur would be a nightmare.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 03:50 AM   #23
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Guys.............

What the heck are you lot talking about?

A decent movie (ARRI etc) camera with optical viewfinder blows any LCD clean off the planet.

Guess what they use for focus?

Viewfinder - nope. Screen - nope. Dope with a rope - nope.

Wanna know?

A LRF.

Works for them, works for me. Could work for you too.

Guess I'm just lucky. I don't have to spend squillions of bucks and have a crew of 5 to make sure I do, actually, have everything in focus.

Guess it's horses for course. Anyone can make it as hard as they like for themselves, if they really want.

Worth a thought.


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Old December 13th, 2007, 04:31 AM   #24
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Chris,

Unfortunately, digital movie cameras don't have optical rangefinder. We use an prehistoric creature called LCD.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 04:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Sergio Perez View Post
EDIT- Tingsern Wong, I'm planning on going the belt way. However, for handhelld, I think i should invest on something on the lines of a shoulder support, or I feel it will just be too heavy. Actually, can you post a picture of how you mount the monitor for Handheld? I'm trying to configure my handheld setup and really would like suggestions for this. The Panasonic HK guys suggested me a SLIK 32 to support itself on the top handle. any better suggestion?
I don't mount the LH80 on the camera itself. I don't think the HVX202 handle is strong enough to cope with the punishment. Even without the added weight of the AB battery, the LCD unit itself is already pretty heavy. When I use the LH80, the camera is on a tripod, with the LH80 mounted on a side rail attached to the tripod leg. Sometimes for filiming inside concert halls for example, I use a separate tripod for the LH80.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 07:26 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TingSern Wong View Post
I don't mount the LH80 on the camera itself. I don't think the HVX202 handle is strong enough to cope with the punishment. Even without the added weight of the AB battery, the LCD unit itself is already pretty heavy. When I use the LH80, the camera is on a tripod, with the LH80 mounted on a side rail attached to the tripod leg. Sometimes for filiming inside concert halls for example, I use a separate tripod for the LH80.
So no handheld with the BTlh80, Tingsern Wong?

Jeff, 480x272 is already better rez than the HVX LCD...

EDIT- Heard the SOny EX has an excelent LCD. So it must be possible. which means there's no excuse for a low quality screen on the next HVX.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 10:37 AM   #27
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So no handheld with the BTlh80, Tingsern Wong?
If I were to use it "handheld", I use the BTLH80 inside a Petrol monitor bag - it comes with its own builtin hood as well. I sling the Petrol bag and walk along with it.

Picture 1 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (rear view)
Picture 2 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (front view), with hood + plastic protector
Picture 3 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (with hood up - front view)
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Old December 13th, 2007, 11:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by TingSern Wong View Post
If I were to use it "handheld", I use the BTLH80 inside a Petrol monitor bag - it comes with its own builtin hood as well. I sling the Petrol bag and walk along with it.

Picture 1 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (rear view)
Picture 2 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (front view), with hood + plastic protector
Picture 3 - LH80 inside Petrol bag (with hood up - front view)
Hmm, so you hold the camera, and basically look down to frame. Seems like something that requires a different approach to normal handheld shooting. But it does sound economical. Much more than the Zacutto package.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 11:53 AM   #29
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If I have to handhold the camera and walk at the same time, somebody else will hold the LH80 for me. That's rarely done for my videos. Most of the time, I am stationary or move to a location, film, then move to another location, film. So, for my purpose, the LH80 can also be mounted on a separate tripod from the camera. My camera is mostly on a video tripod 99% of the time.

I adjust the zoom, focus, and aperature by using the Varizoom Sleath controller. Unless I have to shift the camera, I can just look at the LH80 most of the time, while I control the 3 functions of the camera. In particular, the zoom and focus settings. Aperature settings not so much, unless the light changes.
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Old December 13th, 2007, 01:31 PM   #30
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Hmm... maybe a dvrigpro+ a normal shoe mount for the monitor will work?
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