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Old December 24th, 2007, 12:57 AM   #16
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Sergio, not sure what HVX202 you are referring to - but, unless yours is a super duper version, my poor HVX202 can't shoot 1080p !!! Only 720p and 1080i :-).

I am not referring to using a computer monitor to test. Nobody views movies on computer screens, right? Try viewing a 720p footage against a 1080i footage on a real TV at the standard viewing distance ... very few people can tell the difference.

If you refer to my initial note, I said "no visual difference". I didn't say "no difference". That's the difference - ha ha.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 12:04 PM   #17
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TingSern: I agree - at the outset of my current project I did numerous tests and decided on 720/24pn, primarily to conserve card space (although I have 6 16g cards) since the difference was, to me, negligeable...

Now let me qualify that statement - those of us "old-school" cinematographers that have drawers full of complete sets of ProMists, Black ProMists, SoftFX and Diffusion filters don't judge the aesthetic look of an image by resolution alone.. there is a tactile feeling that sometimes/often comes with an intentional degradation of the image.. call it "film look" if you want, but since I learned to do it while actually shooting film I think that's a mistaken phrase...

Now, if I was shooting wide landscapes of the Rockies I might opt for the highest resolution, cleanest image possible. But I don't do that (often), and for most of my type of shooting, 720 looks as good and sometimes better...

Also, to further qualify my opinion, don't like IMAX either - so, again, it's often a subjective call...
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Old December 24th, 2007, 08:59 PM   #18
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Steve, welcome to my world :-). That's exactly what I did as well. I asked the clients themselves. I shoot 2 minutes video on 720p, and another 2 minutes on 1080i - of the identical scenes ... detailed scenes (inside a tropical rainforest national park). I then played it back to them on their 34" Sanyo HD TV (after minimal processing) - none of them could tell the difference. But, when I played a SD video of the same scene, "Ah ... that one is not so sharp" ... I think it has to do with our eyes as well. On a normal sized TV at normal viewing distances, HD (whether 720p or 1080i) compared with SD - is vastly superior. But when we compare HD itself (between 720p and 1080i) - it might be the TV that is doing the trick - I don't know - but, I did the test myself numerous times - using Sanyo, Panasonic, Sony, etc - consumer grade HD TV - all looks the same ... very sharp (that is).

Of course, when P2 card prices fall to within 10% - 20% of an equivalent Sandisk Extreme 3 CF price - I will buy 4 128GB cards and maybe, 1080i be the norm. Until that day happens, I will stick to 720p.
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Old December 24th, 2007, 09:36 PM   #19
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TingSern, our HVX DOES record 1080p, but in an "i" cadence. Doesn't make sense, does it? Well, picture it like this:

Interlace is made by two half frames, in order to achieve the 50 " reality look" perceivable frames. What Panasonic does is "cheat" the 50i codec to " think" there are 50 half frames, were in fact there are 25 FULL Frames. So you do have 1080 25p, but in a 50i codec. That's all the bandwith is capable for on the dvcprohd PAL 1080i configuration. In NTSC you can get up to 30p. The 24pa everybody discusses here is a different work altogether, because it requires a special pulldown in ntsc, of course.

Anyway, do try the test I posted, and see the results...
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Old December 24th, 2007, 10:29 PM   #20
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Sergio, I didn't know that. Thanks for the education. Okay - when I am free, I will try out your test and see ... will let you know.
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Old June 18th, 2008, 11:22 PM   #21
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Ok, so back to the thread topic.

Im looking for a reliable P2 offloader for run n gun shooting. I might be shooting pikes peak with my MBP on me and an external drive. Well, thats what I want to take since i own all of that already. I dont want to use my 500 to transfer and I have already ran into problems trying to get footage off the cam and not having any other way to transfer besides the camera im shooting with. I know the Duel adapter works....sometimes....so we need to get a real Pani P2 reader. Shouldnt be more than 250 bucks. Its just an interface device.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 12:38 AM   #22
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Hi everybody,

You ALREADY have a dirt cheap, and 100% reliable P2 card reader in every notebook today ... it is called PCMCIA or PC Card slots. My Lenovo's Thinkpad T60 comes with 2 slots as standard. Just install the software driver into Windows XP and .... presto. No need for external readers / Panny's priced to heaven P2 readers - for off trail usage.
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Old June 19th, 2008, 03:12 AM   #23
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We all wish that an inexpensive , simple, card reader was out there, for Mac's n PC's. BUT It is'nt.
I set up a IBM thinkpad to do the off loading in field. and use the camera's USB to download to my Macpro, when i win lotto I will get a panasonic reader until then, my IBM will do.
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olinevideo.com.au
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Old June 19th, 2008, 10:54 AM   #24
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It might help to look at this way:

P2 media was from the outset designed for professional use, not prosumer/consumer. Unfortunately because it's a solid-state type of media it's all too often associated with CF and SD-type cards (and probably because it is HQ-SD at it's heart). But in point of fact it's not consumer-grade media nor consumer-purpose driven, it's for pro use.

To that end it's illogical to assume that the interface for it would be in the same cost-structure as consumer media. Nobody expects a DVCPRO-HD deck to be at the same price-point as a consumer DV/HDV deck, the same applies to P2.

Consider the cost of the least expensive DVCPRO-HD deck, then compare the P2 reader. The P2 reader is still DVCPRO-HD-capable, right? But at a fraction of the cost.

It's the old addage: if you want to play, you gotta pay. And when you consider that P2 gives you the exact same capabilities as the tape-based system (and more) at several price-points lower... I mean really. Stop the whining. Get the gear, make your money and be happy you did it for far less cash outlay than you ever could have 5 years ago.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 05:45 AM   #25
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Hello Robert,
Agreed, but,
One would expect that if Pana produced a low cost P2 camera as the HVX200 for the "Masses" then you would assume that associated low cost P2 card readers would follow ?.
Agreed that Professional level users will shell out and get what's needed in a "total" camera package purchase, but there are many more in the "masses" that cannot justify the cost to that level. Both viewpoints should to be respected.
In My area a Cheap laptop with a PC card reader will set you back about $1000 brand new, compare that to a Pana card reader at over $3000, the laptop is far better value.
IF Amtrons PCMCIA card reader would work in a G5 and the Newer Macpro's, then there would not be all this discussion and rants.
Is there anyone out there that can "write Firmware" to make the Amtron Card reader be OS Leopard Capable ?. it would stop many of these posts.
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olinevideo.com.au
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 05:55 AM   #26
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i do not know, but i simply googled for "pcmcia usb card reader" and found dozen of them for the cheapest starting at around 50$.
is there a string attached ? (drivers compatibility ?)
i just added P2 to the search string and got this
http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/pci-to-...er-p29790.htmlhttp://www.psism.com/reader.htm#PCI
http://www.amtron.com/reader/p2card_reader.htm
http://www.shopdigi.com/product.aspx?pf_id=DUEL
http://www.virtuavia.eu/shop/express...er-p29850.html
for less than $100, it seems not so expensive

so seems there is a lot of cheap solution for PCI, expresscard etc...
but yes you are right, many product are offering P2 reading only for PCs, not Macs.
if you got only PCIe on your machine you still can convert a regular PCI card to PCIe with this
http://virtuavia.eu/shop/pci-express...er-p29855.html
while there is a PCIe PCMCIA card, but not sure if it reads P2, while they got something for windows http://pccard.co.uk/support/pfaq/sramwin.php
http://pccard.co.uk/adapter/e111.php

Last edited by Giroud Francois; June 22nd, 2008 at 06:35 AM.
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Old June 22nd, 2008, 07:49 AM   #27
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Hello Giroud,
I've tested all those, the virtuavia, sounds like a great solution, BUT, it works with PC's and PCIe Mac's, it can only read one installed PCI card at a time. (it's useless).
It works on my Macpro when using Bootcamp Windows XP launch. OS leopard won't see the Cardbus reader.
The Firmware/Driver is the issue, if that was available we would have a $4-$600 P2 card reader. Pana is bringing out a PCIe to 5 card reader, but i believe it will be priced at the same level as the current USB/ firewire reader.
Mac's all have a IDE Optical connector, Nirvana would be a two slot reader that connects to the IDE cable and Firmware for OS leopard .and In the Macpro just mount in the spare optical bay. OR, a SATA connector reader .
I have an Amtron set-up in my old G4 works great, G5 and Macpro you have to spend the dollars.
Beware of Elan cards, the're cards don't work, I have tested them, and they have up on their site the PCIe Cardbus reader the E111, that card dosen't exist except on their site, it's a dead end mock up, Just ask one of their dealers, I wasted lots of phone calls on that one.
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Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 10:19 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Klein View Post
That's satisfies your needs, but a P2 card reader as I was refering to will be compatible with ALL computers, towers/lappies Mac and Windows ect.
USB and firewire connection that's the key.
Cheers Tom K
Get a laptop with gigabit ethernet and you've got your answer. You can connect to any computer (Mac or PC) and actually see the PCMCIA slot as an external drive over the network. Check out this article for how to do it:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=137738
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Old July 2nd, 2008, 07:45 PM   #29
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Hi David,

Yes. I've "been there done that", my lappy has slow ethernet speed , but, it does work all the same. I have read that post, it's a very usefull way to get p2 into Mac.
Everyone who has P2 has varying needs and varying studio/field set-ups, no single solution will fit all those varying set-ups.

Cheers
Tom K
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Old July 3rd, 2008, 11:50 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Klein View Post
Hello Robert,
Agreed, but,
One would expect that if Pana produced a low cost P2 camera as the HVX200 for the "Masses" then you would assume that associated low cost P2 card readers would follow ?.
Agreed that Professional level users will shell out and get what's needed in a "total" camera package purchase, but there are many more in the "masses" that cannot justify the cost to that level. Both viewpoints should to be respected.
Cheers
Tom K
olinevideo.com.au
I disagree with the statement the HVX200 is a "low cost P2 camera". It is definitely not low cost from the "Masses" point of view. From the pro's viewpoint, it is "low cost" (S$8K vs S$30K). But, I doubt anybody from the consumer's viewpoint will consider HVX200 even "medium cost". A Sony HDV camera costing S$2K to S$3K will be about the maximum a consumer will pay for a video camera.
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