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Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders
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Old February 12th, 2008, 06:09 AM   #16
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For the sakes of all eng camerapeople: please add a decent auto-gain/auto limiter function for audio! Every shoulder mount I know has an audio auto-gain/limiter that works perfectly well for 98% of all eng interview situations. With the HVX it's a pain in the ass to shoot run and gun interviews, mostly because you always have to watch and adjust the audio.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 06:17 PM   #17
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agree Tim ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Polster View Post
I do think Panasonic is in sort of a bind with future models.

Sony has put out an HD camera with 1/2" chips at SD prices.

Panasonic has a 1/3" and a 2/3" model at greatly different prices $5,500 - $20,000 (with cheapest lens).

On price alone, Sony has offered something at $6,500 that competes in many ways with the Panasonic $20,000 model.

So Panasonic has to decide to impact their own line to compete with the 1/2" chip $6,500 camera and put something out that is between the HVX and the HPX, or just leave it be.

I think it is clear, a "refesh" with the same chips of the HVX is not what folks want.

It seems that 1/2" chips are not the largest market draw compared to 1/3" ro 2/3" (going from the SD days) but these cameras tend to be in the sweet spot for small business owners like myself who can not justify $20,000 per camera.
1/2" CCDs, 14 (at least) 16 X lens ~ better! Record to Flash cards (not going to happen.) HD/SDI ~ the list could go on but I'd go for something like this!
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Old February 12th, 2008, 06:56 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Dean Harrington View Post
1/2" CCDs, 14 (at least) 16 X lens ~ better! Record to Flash cards (not going to happen.) HD/SDI ~ the list could go on but I'd go for something like this!
Margarita mixer, espresso machine and interplanetary warp drive would be nice!

I am betting that the next HVX iteration will blow us away (if they do more than an HVX-200a refresh). The first one certainly blew me away. Higher FPS would be nice. I would LOVE to have 80-100-120fps although I am sure that would be tough.

Best,

Dan
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Old February 12th, 2008, 07:16 PM   #19
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scarlet ...

What we all want is a small camera that causes the least hassle and gives the best picture! Panasonic cameras produce outstanding pictures. So, get the specs up Panasonic and keep the camera small!
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Old February 12th, 2008, 09:44 PM   #20
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seriously, i gotta admit, i love panasonic equipment, never had a bad experience with one for 12 years. I agree with their fine production of equipment.

My biggest disagreement with panasonic, or sony jvc etc. in that case is that they spoon feed us features until the next update or pay for a higher model.

I think one of them should realize how huge the market is and how demanding users are. People know what uncompressed and interchangable and 4:4:4 is.
People know what latitude and RAW mean. You're not dealing with the same "prosumers" like back in the good old days (good for you that is)

People have gotten smarter and budget aware, people know what is important to them, the internet is wealthy of info.

My point, develop what we want, we are the filmmakers, producers, videographers etc. Call us what you want.We know what we want. Give it to us, or we can go elsewhere. business is business, no hard feelings.
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Old February 12th, 2008, 10:03 PM   #21
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My point, develop what we want, we are the filmmakers, producers, videographers etc. Call us what you want.We know what we want. Give it to us, or we can go elsewhere. business is business, no hard feelings.
How quickly you all forget...

DVX-100 - first 24p prosumer camcorder
DVX-100 - first prosumer camcorder with true cine-gamma
DVX-100 - first prosumer camcorder with decent audio quality when Sony had unusable sounding PD-150/170/VX-2000/2100 as competition
HVX-200 - first sub $10,000.00 camcorder that shoots 100 Mbps 4:2:2 DVCProHD codec
HVX-200 - first sub $10,000.00 camcorder that shoots to solid state media
HVX-200 - first sub $10,000.00 with true variable frame rates

I would say Panasonic has a pretty strong record of developing and giving us what we want at incredible price points. Yes, the field is changing but I am sure Jan & Co. have not been standing by, wringing their hands about a nice but less than perfect camcorder like the EX-1. The EX-1 is capable of great pictures but it also has some serious limitations and design flaws. Big deal. The EX-1 is Sony's version of the HVX. They did some things right, but they really screwed up some things as well.

Who knows if NAB will bring a new announcement but Panasonic will not easily give up a market that they have almost had a corner on for about the past six years.

Best,

Dan
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Old February 12th, 2008, 11:08 PM   #22
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wow, nice answer dan. Remember, i did mention i love panasonic, half my equipment is panasonic. But, it seems to me third parties are now trying to break into the market too. Take that brilliant Red Camera, 4k capture at $30,000 (with accessories) vs say a viper or f23 or cinealta or VARIcam priced between $50,000 and $350,000 with half the capabilities of what Red can do.

Its the signs of the times, panasonic has the HPX and other cams at way different prices and i doubt they'll shoot themselves in the foot by developing what we really want for a way lower price. But then again, they can surprise us and offer something unbelievable, or others could do it cheaper maybe........cough...scarlet...cough .......maybe
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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:33 AM   #23
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I know what you mean. RED is amazing but is really only a film camera, it's totally unsuitable for EFP/ENG production which is a huge market compared to film cameras. What would be nice is if Panny starts to trickle down the higher end features, larger chips and just continues to refine the technology so that the value gets better and better. Something like the HPX with better chips, better low light capability, less noise, higher frame rates and a lower price would fly off of the shelves. It's just like with still cameras, the megapixel wars are over, nobody needs more megapixels. I would be thrilled with a 6 megapixel sensor that is full frame and has huge pixels so that I can get a clean ISO 10,000. Same with video cameras, forget the toys, give us better lcd screen and viewfinders so that we don't have to haul around a field monitor everywhere just to make sure our images are in focus, give us better low light capability, higher frame rates and lower frame rates without the hack. How about better mic pre-amps? Metal headphone jacks? SDI instead of four pin FW connector? This is the stuff that matters to us in day to day production, forget the new toys and 4k.

I think 4k is a lot of hype honestly, it's cool but most people (audience) are clueless even about HD, 4k is so far in the future, it can barely be seen, once again, except for filmmakers who are sure that their magnum opus will be seen on the big screen, which is not most users.

Scarlet does sound interesting and may change everything for us low end users, we will know soon enough.

Best,

Dan
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Old February 13th, 2008, 06:44 PM   #24
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darn it dan. you leave me speechless, my thoughts exactly, less bells and whistles and more of what we want
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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:09 PM   #25
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I echo what Dan has been saying, several times over. To date, no manufacturer has *really* addressed the needs of the indie producer, and here's probably one reason why:

HDCAM, DVcam, DVCPRO, (all flavors) DV25 are all *broadcast* formats, originally designed for the NTSC or PAL TV standards and now HDTV, but not for moviemaking. So the feature sets of the cameras, resolutions, frame rates etc. are all based mainly by current broadcast standards. The "cinema" features such as cine-gamma, VFR, etc. have been included mainly because over time these broadcast-video cameras have been used as a poor-mans alternative to what would normally be the realm of very costly film production, whether it's super-8 (way back when), 16 or 35mm, and so the manufacturers have squeezed-in these "added features" to their broadcast cameras.

The Viper, RED, Si2K, F23 and similarly marketed high-end video cameras were designed NOT to be super-duper *broadcast-format* systems but instead to replace traditional film-production hardware - which is at the other extreme end of the cost spectrum, and their feature set emulates the film-cameras operating environment.

What has happened however, is that the marketplace - which is *all of us* have actually been using BOTH types of cameras outside their original target design structure; we're beefing up the broadcast-video cameras to be more film-like and RED users want a production solution that doesn't come along with the heavy film-like workflow and required external equipment.

So basically what we've all been asking for is the exact middle-ground - which Dan has so eloquently exacted in his "wish list" description.

The problem, is that unless the manufacturers are willing to step outside-the-box and give us something that isn't exactly a broadcast-format camera and, isn't exactly a film-workflow replacement, then we'll all be doing exactly what we're doing now - making the best of what we have and finding workarounds or third-party devices to create what we want.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #26
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exactly, and i believe panasonic did that for instance with their first 24p DVX,
i remember when it first came out how much commotion it caused.

So now we need that indie digital film cam beefed up with useful features we want, made specifically for filmmaking simulating a film camera (like HVX) but with more solid features. Full raster 1080P or even 2k, a high latitude, no noise or offsetting, CF recording, RAW capture or a nice codec at least (like AVCHD).

But again, i feel like we're doing circles here, most of the features we want are placed in the higher priced cams. I hope something like scarlet changes that. Unless panny or sony or jvc etc. surprises us.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 09:30 PM   #27
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But then again, they can surprise us and offer something unbelievable, or others could do it cheaper maybe........cough...scarlet...cough .......maybe
Until the Red Team comes around with a workflow that is easy as P2, then the HVX still has an edge.

Most people need to edit RIGHT away or soon after the shoot. "Processing" the footage is a no-go for a lot of producers.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 10:09 PM   #28
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ya, gotta admit the p2 workflow is pretty awesome, hopefully no conversion, just drop and go.
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Old February 13th, 2008, 10:36 PM   #29
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Editing on Vegas, this P2 workflow thing reminds me why a smooth workflow is important. (I've just rented the HVX-200. And I used Raylight. And after upgrading and having to convert files - again - I was re-reminded how important it is to get the right cam/codec/NLE combo...)

There seems to be two schools of thought on RED/Scarlet. The ENG-type needs to edit NOW. The digital cinema-type wants to edit RAW.

The perfect camera would have options for both.
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Old February 14th, 2008, 06:47 PM   #30
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so the new cam panasonic will give us will be good for both ENG/EFP and Digital Filmmaking, it will offer p2 support, more latitude, no noise, full raster 1080p, AVCHD or no compression, we do like the cinelike gamma and all the same menus. We are more concerned about artifacts, macroblocking, offsetting pixels and artificial manipulation. We dont care much for lots of bells and whistles that dont get used often. We want a solid camera with solid features at a reasonable price
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