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Old December 22nd, 2008, 10:36 AM   #16
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Cheers Steve
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 02:06 PM   #17
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I think Steve's lens test have been very interesting and they are worth a look. If you were getting the 2700 I can't really see any reason why a good SD lens would not be adequate. For the 700 the lens is often the limiting factor for picture quality. Primes on a 700 look stunning!
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Old December 22nd, 2008, 05:02 PM   #18
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Thanks Alister I had a chance today to look over a few of the lens threads, I will continue to dive in. Very interesting how a high quality SD lens will cut it with the 2700. Is that Primes or DigiPrimes or does it matter? You shoot with both cameras correct?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:29 AM   #19
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Alister have you used a 5mm or 9mm prime on either camera? Interested to see any examples if possible. Always appreciate you opinion.

Merry Christmas to all
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Old December 26th, 2008, 02:48 PM   #20
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Have you considered a Red

Let me say first that I don't mean to hi-jack the thread. Secondly, I do NOT own a red and third, I've been renting P2 cameras for the last year for my video production company. I am a huge fan of the P2 technology and workflow. Anything tapeless is great in my book!!! My problem with Panasonic is their pricing and lack of innovative thinking. They've recently introduced the long awaited P2 Varicams one of which is "handicaped" by a 720 chip and the other more expensive version is handicapped by max. 30fps. Give me a break!!! For over $40K you'd expect more... Consider most of us don't even spend that on a vehicle or even mortgage payments in a year.

The red system is designed to be constantly upgradable (by the user). When the first batch of reds started shipping it could barely do 60fps(somebody correct me if I'm wrong). Now, a few firmware updates later, they are already at 120fps and climbing. How many people actually use UNDER 24fps?!

It cost under $20k for the red body BUT by the time you outfit it with all the required accessories including lens you are in the region of the HPX3000 ($40K) and WAYYYYY under the $60K for the HPX3700. Bear in mind too that the 2/3 inch cams don't come with a viewfinder. You'll also need a good lens*, P2 cards 16,32,64Gb (msrp 900,1650,2600 resp.) AND a bigger tripod (unless you're using a 150mm system with your EX1) a mattebox for sure if you're shooting outside so you can either use filters or shade the lens from glare etc. So the investment in a 2/3inch system doesn't stop with the purchase of the camera body.

*A good lens is the first link in the chain toward achieving pleasing images regardless of the body that comes after the lens. Theres been talk about using SD lenses on HD cameras but I'm not convinced thats a feasible way to go. You are likely to hear that manufactures are just using hype to sell their higher priced "HD" lenses. Think about it, is Canon or Fujinon so strapped for cash that they need to trick us into buying a HD lens vs a SD lens so they can make more money?
You won't buy a car and take the tires off and replace with 4 spare-tires (donuts we call them). Although they get the job done of moving the car from point A to point B they will totally limit what your car is capable of doing.

Last words: (Another car example)
If you had a choice between a Honda with all the latest technology, like power windows, power steering, gps, great gas mileage etc and a Mercedes without any technology, so no power windows etc and $100 per tank that only lasted 3days, which one would you choose? Would you pay the premium that's associated with the Mercedes name or would you pay for the Honda that has everything you need and more.

Like Honda and Mercedes, Panasonic and Red make great products. It all comes down to how far your money is going to go in the end. Red has future-proofed their camera by allowing it to shoot 4K all the way down to 720p whereas Panasonic is still releasing 720p cameras.

Choose wisely as this is a huge investment. As with any type of investment you want that three years from now your ROI far exceeds your initial investment. Either way they are all great cameras, its up to you to make the magic happen...

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Old December 26th, 2008, 03:02 PM   #21
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Some good points Ryan, but just bear in mind that the RED is in a lot of ways not directly comparable to the regular broadcast cameras, there are pros and cons to each.
Don't know where you've seen the Varicams, but dealers here certainly do include viewfinders with them.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 03:22 PM   #22
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Ryan always nice to hear a different point of view to open my thought process. I have looked at the Red One and it is still on my list.
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Last edited by Paul Cronin; December 26th, 2008 at 03:59 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 03:38 PM   #23
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Steve, Good day to you mate. How was christmas in Wales?

I was referring only to the Panasonic MSRP and what they have posted on their website (US). None of their pro bodies come with a VF according to their website which adds another $3500 - $5000 USD. Now street prices are a different story and if a dealer includes a VF then thats even better! But with all things video, its always best to over-estimate and the MSRP is a good starting point.

Regarding the red in ENG configuration, RED sells a B4 adapter/mount which will allow the use of 2/3inch lenses instead of PL-mount lenses. A viable alternative, don't you think?

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Old December 26th, 2008, 03:58 PM   #24
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Oh, it's not the lenses that's the problem - in fact if I could get away from using B4 lenses I'd be delighted! It's the operation and workflow (plus availability - talking of viewfinders, I wonder what the delivery date for a RED VF is now - it was certainly pretty damned long when I had a reservation on a camera!) The camera takes 90 seconds to boot up for one thing, then there all sorts of reliability question marks, limited dynamic range, and a very specialist post processing situation. To my mind it's still very much a work in progress.
I must say though, the new lineup of products looks amazing - in theory!
On the Varicams, how are your prices looking over there, for the 2700 it's 21000 including plate and VF here, which to me sounds pretty reasonable, not far off the price of a Sony PDW700 and less than a 790, though of course you've got to factor P2 cards into that.
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Old December 26th, 2008, 04:20 PM   #25
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Steve that is very close to the price in the US. Too bad the 0% is over at the end of the year. Would be nice if Sony offered a low rate on 24 month purchase. Cash is king and it would be nice to hold onto as much as possible.

Ryan a lot of the options I already own but I agree the camera is only 1/2 the purchase price. What Panasonic cameras do your rent?
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Old December 26th, 2008, 05:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Paul Cronin View Post
Ryan a lot of the options I already own but I agree the camera is only 1/2 the purchase price. What Panasonic cameras do your rent?
I have rented the HPX500 on several occasions over the last year. Like I said before, I truly dig the P2 workflow but the image quality of the 500 is nowhere near a Red (which I haven't used) or any higher-end P2 cams. It does the trick for the kind of projects I do.

I have a project coming up soon that I would love to try out the red on. I would also like to try the HPX3000 with a PRO35 adapter and some 35mm lenses but alas, that combo is a bit more expensive to rent vs a red from a local renter. So we'll see which one I end up going with.

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Old December 26th, 2008, 05:29 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps View Post
On the Varicams, how are your prices looking over there, for the 2700 it's 21000 including plate and VF here, which to me sounds pretty reasonable
Steve
I might have to move to where you are. 21000pounds (i cant find the pound sign arrrrrrrrg!) is the equivalent to about $30k USD and about $37k CDN which is considerably lower than the MSRP of $39,950USD OR $40K CDN. I have been quoted close to $50k from a local Panny dealer for:
HPX2000
AVC-Intra board
Canon HJ lens
32Gb P2 Card
VF
Tripod adapter


It sounds like you are getting a great deal over there.

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Old December 27th, 2008, 04:58 AM   #28
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Depends what HJ lens you've been quoted for, some of them are more than the camera, but typically you'll be looking at 10-15000.
I'm still not sure why folks want a Pro35 etc., adapter on a 2/3" cam, why not just shoot wide open, surely that's limited enough depth of field for anyone?
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