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Old February 12th, 2009, 04:02 PM   #16
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I don't know but Sandisk has SDHC cards with advertised 30MBps read & writes.

The HMC-150 can record 24Mbps using class 4 cards so maybe 50Mbps intra might not be that far away?
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:06 PM   #17
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Good correction. Sorry.

I did not realize the 17x lens was part of the package.

But, I think for this camera to really have 'whooped up' on the Sony it would need 1/2" chips and offer the option of SD card recording like the HMC-150.

Now that the M&R solution is in use, the EX-1 for $6,000 is a lot better value than the HPX-300 at $9,000 given they are both CMOS and the memory price comparisons are pretty far apart.
Tim I really think your underestimating the avc intra codec, it really does not compare to xdcam ex at all. I'm the last person ON EARTH to stand up for p2 cards and their prices but even I have to admit that what the 300 is recording is more than what an sd card can handle, the raid of a p2 card is needed.

The 1/3" chip may sound small but ultimately you've got to give it up for image quality and with a codec like that is should be extremely good, and the post options should be more flexible than anything else at the price point.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 03:33 PM   #18
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Good correction. Sorry.

I did not realize the 17x lens was part of the package.

But, I think for this camera to really have 'whooped up' on the Sony it would need 1/2" chips and offer the option of SD card recording like the HMC-150.

Now that the M&R solution is in use, the EX-1 for $6,000 is a lot better value than the HPX-300 at $9,000 given they are both CMOS and the memory price comparisons are pretty far apart.
Why are you comparing the ex1 to the hpx300? They aren't in same market, comapre it to the ex3 which is like 8400.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 04:30 PM   #19
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........but even I have to admit that what the 300 is recording is more than what an sd card can handle, the raid of a p2 card is needed.
Not really - in an EX, and even having to use the USB bus, SDHC cards will make up to about 40fps overcrank, maybe a bit more. That's about 35x 40/24 - or about 60Mbs, so should be enough for AVC-Intra50.

And that's with the adaptor, and the EX USB bus. With a direct connection, the cards will certainly manage more.

Even if it still wasn't enough, CF cards would easily be OK to record AVC-Intra100, and fairly cheap ones at that (ExtremeIII). The XDR proves you don't need P2 raids to record 100Mbs video, just fairly cheap CF, even if SDHC isn't yet up to it.

What I do look forward to is an EXx with the 50Mbs codec, which has the same unqualified approval from the EBU that AVC-Intra100 does. That should definitely be capable of being recorded to SDHC, especially if it's possible to get an adaptor by then which uses the PCIExpress bus.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:36 PM   #20
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When I did a round SDHC testing with a client's EX1 a few months ago, we consistently saw dropped frames at 36fps with four different brands of cards.

There is no contest between AVCIntra and XDCAM EX as far as codecs. AVCIntra is leagues better as any HPX2700/3000/3700 owner can verify.

I am predicting street of $8.995.00. I agree, wish that they could have implemented 1/2" CMOS sensors as Sony did, but overall, this camera looks to smoke the EX3. Ergonomics, codec, features. The only advantage I see with the EX3 is the SDHC hack, if your workflow can put up with the limit on frame rates when using it. Or if you like the images the Sony shoots better, of course. When Barry Green said, "this camera combines the sharpness of the EX1/EX3 with the color, look and feel of the other Panasonic P2 cameras", that sounded very exciting to me.

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Old February 13th, 2009, 06:54 PM   #21
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The only hands-on review I've read of the camera seems to indicate that the skew and jellovision is noticeably worse than the EXx series. AVC-Intra is a nice codec, and the camera seems to have a lot of the right stuff, but unfortunately, it seems Panasonic hasn't quite got the CMOS thing down yet.

And that is a shame.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM   #22
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Evan,

I guess I am coming from the poit of view that a lot of this stuff is only specs.

IMHO, the difference between normal shooting conditions of all of the codecs mentioned are going to be small especially after a run thru color correction.

I just did a shoot with an HPX-500 with Flash XDR, HMC-150 and an HVX-200.

The end result after post is that they are very close and non video people would never be able to tell the difference.

Now one area that is very obvious to me is the DOF of the HPX-500. Its images just look better to me because of the chip size.

Couple of other things.

It would be convenient to only compare the EX-3 to the HPX-300, but the only difference is the ability to add longer lenses.

Under 14x on the lens and the EX-1 & 3 are the same camera, same image. So yes, the EX-1 for $6,000 has a 1/2" chip full resolution image.

AVC-Intra is a 10bit codec. Not all NLEs can edit in 10bit. I use Edius which is 8bit. So while I think AVC-Intra is the best codec out there, the 10bit advertising really does not help me as the files will be transcoded to 8bit upon entry to my NLE.

I own Panasonic cameras, I am just not smitten with this offering.

The real cost of this camera is going to be over $10,000 when you factor in P2 pricing.

That is a lot for a 1/3" chip camera with any codec.

Last edited by Tim Polster; February 13th, 2009 at 07:40 PM.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #23
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I am predicting street of $8.995.00. I agree, wish that they could have implemented 1/2" CMOS sensors as Sony did, but overall, this camera looks to smoke the EX3. Ergonomics, codec, features. The only advantage I see with the EX3 is the SDHC hack, if your workflow can put up with the limit on frame rates when using it.
We're seeing pre-order adverts around 7,500 on the street in the UK, plus the cost of pro style batteries if you don't already have them. (In spite of 1/3" chips it's power hungry v the EX3 - 18 watts v 13.5!) That means in very round figures that with no memory it's about 50% more than an EX3, twice as much as an EX1 - and then you have to buy P2, not SDHC.

I was about to get an EX3, then heard about this, and whilst there is a lot to commend about the HPX300, the more I hear the more I think I'll stick with getting an EX3. Lens, for example. The EX3 supplied lens is significantly wider at the wide end than what comes with the HPX300. The EX3 should be just about OK - but I think I'd need a wider lens with the HPX300.

I do like the HPX300 ergonomics, radio mic integration and things like the ability to record proxies to SD cards, but really don't think I want to pay a lot more, only to give up 1/2" chips for 1/3" and have to use expensive memory. I don't see any problem with framerates using MxR - just have one 8GB true SxS card for off speed shooting and dub the clips in camera to SDHC. Even if I did a lot of off speed, SxS is still a lot cheaper per minute than P2.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 09:13 PM   #24
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The only hands-on review I've read of the camera seems to indicate that the skew and jellovision is noticeably worse than the EXx series. AVC-Intra is a nice codec, and the camera seems to have a lot of the right stuff, but unfortunately, it seems Panasonic hasn't quite got the CMOS thing down yet.

And that is a shame.
The thing i stressed in that review was the fact it was a preproduction model,

Im about to go back to my office and have a play with my EX1 fully zoomed in, i played with the HPX300 yesterday and i can still remember how much skew there was. I'll plug it into my BTLH80 monitor and view it on that as well as the EX1's LCD.

We were playing with the camera in AVC-I 100 1080 50i so i'll make sure the camera is set to that. The only issue i can see with my test is the fact the ex1 only has 14x lens compared to the HPX300s 17x.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 09:58 PM   #25
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Right, so i just went and did a test with my EX1.

Threw it into 1080 50i - the same setting we were playing with the HPX300 in.

Turned the OIS off. Cause of course.. the hpx doesnt have it.

Zoomed right in on a bunch of vertical bars.. and went wild.

Wow, i guess what i just learnt was the fact that shooting progressive masks skew.. because at 1080i on the EX1 there was a hell of a lot of skew going on. Not not as much as i saw with the HPX300, however it was very close.. and the bars i had been shooting were about the same distance away.

Now the only thing i can think that would alter this test was the focal length of the lens.. a 14x compared to a 17x.. and that would definitely make a difference in skew exaggeration.

Still, need to get the cameras side by side and test it..
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Old February 14th, 2009, 04:08 AM   #26
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The only issue i can see with my test is the fact the ex1 only has 14x lens compared to the HPX300s 17x.

Now the only thing i can think that would alter this test was the focal length of the lens.. a 14x compared to a 17x.. and that would definitely make a difference in skew exaggeration.
It's not just the zoom range that differs, but the absolute figures. The HPX300 is 4.5mm at the wide end, the EX1 (&3) are 5.8mm. In terms of angle of view, thiese figures equate to 9mm and 8.2mm on a 2/3" camera, the EX is noticeably wider.

I'd rather have this better wide angle capability, and accept the 14x over the 17x, but it does mean that the telephoto reach will be even less than just a 17x/14x comparison would have you believe.
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Old February 14th, 2009, 08:10 PM   #27
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Panasonic | 1/3" CMOS P2 HD CAMCORDER | AG-HPX300 | B&H
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Old February 14th, 2009, 09:36 PM   #28
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Anyone know if the HD-SDI tap is 10-bit?
Also, I just want to confirm, rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with this camera right?
-C
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Old February 14th, 2009, 09:43 PM   #29
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Anyone know if the HD-SDI tap is 10-bit?
Also, I just want to confirm, rolling shutter shouldn't be an issue with this camera right?
-C
Yes it has a 10-bit HD-SDI output, actually it has 2. The sensor has the same read out as other CMOS cameras... so it does have a rolling shutter and all the other artifacts that go along with it.

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Old February 15th, 2009, 02:16 PM   #30
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I'm also pretty amazed to see true pro features such as proxy abilities to SD card
Not sure of the point of this. Proxies are very useful on slower media like XDCAM disc, but for solid state it is rather redundant.

Enough of the skew issue already. Unless you are in a press scrum on a dark evening most of your shooting life it isn't an issue. I've shot hundreds of hours of footage and it has never been an issue with my EX3. And that's with fast moving footage such as WRC class rally cars etc.
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