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Old April 9th, 2009, 10:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
Pana needs to address the new more event based Panasonic clients with low budgets who some of the P2 cameras are marketed to.
Jeff:

According to your sig, you already own Panasonic's solution to those shooters. The HMC150/151 is the perfect solution for event-based long form shooters. As far as higher end pros, I tested the SD card hack on the EX1 for a client who shoots for all of the film studios. When I showed them that it works but dropped frames at anything 36fps and higher, they said, "no thanks, we'll stick with SxS cards". I can't imagine P2 users or even high end SxS shooters risking jobs worth hundreds of thousands of dollars of business to shoot on relatively unreliable, cheap, flimsy (in comparison to P2) SDHC cards. Low cost media is not most important thing for most pro shooters, reliability/dependability is.

I don't see Panasonic drastically lowering P2 prices anytime soon.

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Old April 10th, 2009, 06:25 PM   #17
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What does that have to do with this discussion? Unless you are trying to say putting a pro label on a product automatically justifies a high price, regardless of merit.
Of course you can charge more when it's not just a simple flash memory card you buy, the SD solution for sxs card drop frames above a certain fps, thus either rendering the SD cards useless or the 50fps mode useless on the camera. Of course the hpx170/300 and hvx put the cards as expensive, but still a lot of costumers need the safety that proprietary technologies gives.

The only cards that in theory could match P2 are the newest CF cards, but it's hard for panasonic to guarantee the quality of production outside their world.

That said, i don't think Panasonic could charge whatever they want, and for the smaller cams it's a tad expensive for starter. But in every viable business you should charge enough to pay for the gear in x amount of time, or just rent if you some times need to shoot more than say 2 P2 cards can hold. Thats my plan for P2, have 2-3cards, renting if more are needed.
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kellam View Post
1. The designation of an an item as consumer or pro has nothing to do with price except on a marketing level.
2. If any recorder loses power during recording, recording stops.
3. Over/undercrank is in the camera, not the recording device.
1. HDMI are consumer, but adopted in some pro equipment since it's cheap and simple. It's about as bullet proof as firewire connectors, bnc connectors are what you should be using unless you are in a cozy studio :)
2. What happens to the last clip? Corrupted and unusable might mean do another run in the chopper or miss a valuble shot. Of course chopper shooting is a bit maximizing the consequences, but some times you end up with pictures that will cost a lot to re-shoot.
3. When putting the hpx170 to overcrank mode, are the pictures from the sdi slowmotion?(maybe i was a bit quick, but thats what i though about.)
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Old April 13th, 2009, 12:45 AM   #18
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1. HDMI are consumer, but adopted in some pro equipment since it's cheap and simple. It's about as bullet proof as firewire connectors, bnc connectors are what you should be using unless you are in a cozy studio :)
BNC cables aren't really stronger than HDMI cables, its the locking connector more than anything. But SDI is only on the hpx170, point to the "pro" connection on a camera of equal status, the hvx200.


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2. What happens to the last clip? Corrupted and unusable might mean do another run in the chopper or miss a valuble shot. Of course chopper shooting is a bit maximizing the consequences, but some times you end up with pictures that will cost a lot to re-shoot.
That might be the worst argument ever. There are plenty of pro recorders that would suffer from the same problem, - scratch that everything electronic can suffer from that problem. Anything anytime can malfunction and loose power. Why is an hdmi recorder more likely to loose power and the thus the recording than a hvx200 shooting to p2 cards? In either circumstance a loss in power = a lost shot. I have lost shots to p2 cameras shutting down or loosing power. I don't see how something being labeled "pro" suddenly fixes this.

It just sounds like you're grasping at straws at this point. If Panasonic turned around and said they were going to lower the price of all currently shipping P2 cards by $400 would you now complain that they are too cheap? Would you send them an extra $400 out of good will? Would they no longer be pro?

You haven't made a good argument for anything other than stating the belief that "Pro" products are somehow less prone to problems than "consumer" products, which is largely a falsity when you consider the complex electronics in any given device.

Is a P2 card more durable than an SD card? Yes. Is a P2 card perfect? No. Is either of those facts the argument or the point that the various posters (and many others over time on these boards) have been trying to make? No.

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Originally Posted by Christian Magnussen View Post
3. When putting the hpx170 to overcrank mode, are the pictures from the sdi slowmotion?(maybe i was a bit quick, but thats what i though about.)
Most of my P2 shooting is limited to the hvx200 and the hpx500, but I'm almost positive the hpx170 puts out whatever it shoots through SDI including slow-motion but it won't look slow until playback.
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Old April 13th, 2009, 04:51 AM   #19
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BNC cables aren't really stronger than HDMI cables, its the locking connector more than anything. But SDI is only on the hpx170, point to the "pro" connection on a camera of equal status, the hvx200.
The connector are the issue, it's way to easy to damage to use it in the field. Long HDMI cables also are more expensive than the coax cables used for sdi, which also are possible to repair in the field with simple tools.

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Originally Posted by Evan C. King View Post
That might be the worst argument ever. There are plenty of pro recorders that would suffer from the same problem, - scratch that everything electronic can suffer from that problem. Anything anytime can malfunction and loose power. Why is an hdmi recorder more likely to loose power and the thus the recording than a hvx200 shooting to p2 cards? In either circumstance a loss in power = a lost shot. I have lost shots to p2 cameras shutting down or loosing power. I don't see how something being labeled "pro" suddenly fixes this.
Well I'm forced to trust what Panasonic and their salesmenn tell me, but can't remember running out for batteries during shooting with P2/SxS. According to Panasonic you shall not loose more than 2 seconds of the last clip if power is lost.

As already pointed out by others, the media cost for many won't be the issue when thousands of dollars are on the line. I just raised the price as i'm moving into buying P2 equipment and usually there are no complaints, except for greedy broadcasters that don't want to pay in the first place...
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Originally Posted by Evan C. King View Post
It just sounds like you're grasping at straws at this point. If Panasonic turned around and said they were going to lower the price of all currently shipping P2 cards by $400 would you now complain that they are too cheap? Would you send them an extra $400 out of good will? Would they no longer be pro?

You haven't made a good argument for anything other than stating the belief that "Pro" products are somehow less prone to problems than "consumer" products, which is largely a falsity when you consider the complex electronics in any given device.
Why are xdcam expensive then? It's nothing more than a bluray disc in a fancy cover.

No pro don't justify charging whatever they want, but pro in my world mean that the manufacturer should go the extra length to ensure that the quality will hold up to the abuse of pro use. Cf cards are cheap and hold up, can't really see where I stated that pro can't be cheap. What you also pay for is the fact that P2 cards, except the first ones, bought back in the start can still be used with the both the cheap hpx170 or the hpx3700 in avc-i. There are also according to Panasonic headroom for implementing higher bit rates. So P2 might be expensive, but at least in the pro world.....it's possible to protect the investment, but that don't mean it defend the price the the largest P2 cards have.

But the best argument is that no sd or cf card available today, i know that cf cards that are fast enough are around the corner, can record the higher framerates you can do with Pana/Sony. Sd adapter in SxS drops above 35ish fps and dvcprohd with higher bitrates i can't imagine would be better, then i also imagine it would have a hard time coping with 720p50 which are what many broadcasters here in Europe aim for as standard.
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Old April 13th, 2009, 06:09 PM   #20
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Sd adapter in SxS drops above 35ish fps ......, then i also imagine it would have a hard time coping with 720p50 which are what many broadcasters here in Europe aim for as standard.
I think you're misunderstanding, Christian. The SDHC cards in adaptor have absolutely no problem reliably recording 50 or 60 fps (720p/50, 720p/60) IN NORMAL RECORDING. The framerate issues are only relevant in overcrank mode - when the material is recorded at a higher framerate, but normal playback of the stream is 24 or 25 fps. The EX in such mode will always try to give a standard 35Mbs in playback - which can mean a much higher bitrate in overcrank record, maybe 80/90Mbs. That's what the SDHC cards can't do, not at least until an ExpressCard PCI adaptor comes about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Brockett
I can't imagine P2 users or even high end SxS shooters risking jobs worth hundreds of thousands of dollars of business to shoot on relatively unreliable, cheap, flimsy (in comparison to P2) SDHC cards. Low cost media is not most important thing for most pro shooters, reliability/dependability is.
I see where you're coming from, but it assumes that the biggest chance of unreliability would be due to hardware failure and I don't believe that to be true. I've heard of little problems with P2 hardware failure, but several where cards were formatted in error - it was believed the material had been transferred, in practice it hadn't. It happened to a potential client of mine, and on hearing of the SDHC workflow his reaction was "at last! The benefits of solid state workflow, without the drawbacks of P2!" Cheap cards means you can have enough that they don't need to be reused until well into the production process, by which time everything is verified. Or even after the edit is finished, ideally!

And even if anyone really doesn't trust lower cost SDHC, the beauty to me of an SxS camera is the choice it gives - you don't have to use low cost media, you can equally use top notch SxS cards with the same camera. Choose the media to suit the assignment. A choice you just don't get with P2.
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Originally Posted by Christian Magnussen View Post
Imagine a tv station investing millions in P2 in the start, it would be a VERY bad move by Panasonic to make their investment almost worthless overnight just to follow the consumer speed of new technologies. That also sends the signal to other large customers, we might change the standard after some time.
But at the moment the vast majority of stations are still using tape, the vast majority still have to commit to a next generation format. And they are the ones who will be spending the money sooner or later - not those who have already committed. Hence, my feeling is that any manufacturer needs to be worrying more about what his rivals are offering as competion today than what past customers think. Stick with an old technology for past customers, and potential customers will just buy a rivals up to date technology.

Yes, you continue to support what has recently been sold, spare parts, memory cards etc for a realistic period, but it would be foolish to hold back new developments for fear of upsetting past customers.
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Old April 13th, 2009, 08:35 PM   #21
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I think you're misunderstanding, Christian. The SDHC cards in adaptor have absolutely no problem reliably recording 50 or 60 fps (720p/50, 720p/60) IN NORMAL RECORDING. The framerate issues are only relevant in overcrank mode - when the material is recorded at a higher framerate, but normal playback of the stream is 24 or 25 fps. The EX in such mode will always try to give a standard 35Mbs in playback - which can mean a much higher bitrate in overcrank record, maybe 80/90Mbs. That's what the SDHC cards can't do, not at least until an ExpressCard PCI adaptor comes about.
Maybe have misunderstood that a bit, but if the Xdcam codec then pushes the bandwith need up against 80/90Mbs, won't dvcprohd be way beyond what SD cards are capable of when overcranking?
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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
But at the moment the vast majority of stations are still using tape, the vast majority still have to commit to a next generation format. And they are the ones who will be spending the money sooner or later - not those who have already committed. Hence, my feeling is that any manufacturer needs to be worrying more about what his rivals are offering as competion today than what past customers think. Stick with an old technology for past customers, and potential customers will just buy a rivals up to date technology.

Yes, you continue to support what has recently been sold, spare parts, memory cards etc for a realistic period, but it would be foolish to hold back new developments for fear of upsetting past customers.
Most stations still are on tape, but more and more are going tapeless, either with Xdcam or P2. I'm not so sure that Sony would start using Sd or cf cards, except in their hdv lineup,for the larger pro gear. Sony still are based around the "tape" mentality with xdcam discs. At the moment many broadcasters see Panasonic as the only firm offering a complete memory based workflow from the handheld to high end shoulder mount. For many the need to SD a few more years and then switch to HD also favours Panasonic.

As long as P2 grow in size I wouldn't call it outdated as it outperforms all current sd and cf cards and offers the same or better capacity, of course with a price tag. This might go down with more and more P2 users? Who knows....maybe NAB or IBC will bring some new light to the P2 roadmap?

One difficult thing with say jumping over to er new standard are who should decide when? Many broadcaster run their gear almost 10 years before replacing it and they expect service and parts for those years. And I suspect broadcasters with billions in their investment pockets have much more to say then us small freelancers....
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Old April 14th, 2009, 07:48 PM   #22
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Maybe have misunderstood that a bit, but if the Xdcam codec then pushes the bandwith need up against 80/90Mbs, won't dvcprohd be way beyond what SD cards are capable of when overcranking?
Possibly - but the speed bottleneck seems not to be the SD cards, but having to communicate with the EX via the USB bus. Take that away (as with the new JVC cameras) and much higher speed overcranking should be possible. Whether 100Mbs is possible is a debatable, but rather misses the point. The first hope for cheap memory for the Ex was Compact Flash - SDHC was only used for reasons of physical size - and even fairly basic spec CF is easily able to record 100Mbs, as used by DVCProHD. The proof is in the CV XDR - it is guaranteed to record 100Mbs MPEG2 onto approved (and pretty cheap) 133x CF.

You just do not need the complexity and expense of P2 to record pro quality video these days. P2 was a necessary technology to get the speed when being developed, but just isn't anymore.
Quote:
Most stations still are on tape, but more and more are going tapeless, either with Xdcam or P2. I'm not so sure that Sony would start using Sd or cf cards, except in their hdv lineup,for the larger pro gear. Sony still are based around the "tape" mentality with xdcam discs.
There's no doubt that tapeless will increasingly be adopted, with at the moment XDCAM disc with the PDW700 seeming to be most in favour amongst European broadcasters, from recent announcements. But when XDCAM first came out Sony agreed that solid state would be the eventual future, but thought the time wasn't right then. The introduction of SxS via the EX seems to imply that they now think the time soon WILL be right, and an SxS version of the PDW700 is eagerly awaited. The question is when.

I agree they won't natively go for SD or CF for their larger pro gear - far more likely SxS - but as 50Mbs XDCAM-HD422 is a fully approved next gen HD codec, it's likely SDHC/adaptors may still be usable in such cameras. You may choose to use "proper" SxS, but again, the user has the choice.
Quote:
As long as P2 grow in size I wouldn't call it outdated as it outperforms all current sd and cf cards and offers the same or better capacity, of course with a price tag.
But for many users lots of small cheap cards are more useful than a few big ones, especially if the workflow is for something such as news - shoot a few minutes of interview, then send card to be edited or linked whilst carrying on shooting. Unfortunately, P2 economics favour big cards - smaller ones tend to be discontinued as soon as larger ones come out.
Quote:
One difficult thing with say jumping over to er new standard are who should decide when? Many broadcaster run their gear almost 10 years before replacing it and they expect service and parts for those years.
You make a good point, but just because a new range comes out, doesn't mean an older one becomes instantly unusable, and spares should still be available. But manufacturers make their money largely from new customers, not ones they've recently supplied. I doubt there has ever been one single standard, though such as Betacam did have a high dominance at one point. But by and large customers will buy what they consider best for them at the time, and that's what drives newer and better products coming along.

I believe a tipping point will come with a full size pro SxS based camera, and at that point Panasonic will have some very hard decisions to make. At the moment it's perfectly true that if you want a high end solid state camera it has to be Panasonic. Don't expect that to be true for too much longer.
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Old April 19th, 2009, 11:19 PM   #23
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Why are xdcam expensive then? It's nothing more than a bluray disc in a fancy cover.

No pro don't justify charging whatever they want, but pro in my world mean that the manufacturer should go the extra length to ensure that the quality will hold up to the abuse of pro use. Cf cards are cheap and hold up, can't really see where I stated that pro can't be cheap. What you also pay for is the fact that P2 cards, except the first ones, bought back in the start can still be used with the both the cheap hpx170 or the hpx3700 in avc-i. There are also according to Panasonic headroom for implementing higher bit rates. So P2 might be expensive, but at least in the pro world.....it's possible to protect the investment, but that don't mean it defend the price the the largest P2 cards have.
Lol, I responded to you on the 13th and look it's the 19th and Panasonic took the $800 16gb card and dropped it $400, just like I said. Now maybe we should make the debate about the worth of the "A" vs "E" series instead of about the worth of P2 cards in the first place.
Are you still going to raise your prices? Are you going to still buy "A" series cards, are the "E" series not pro enough? I know my hvx200 will be happy.
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Old April 20th, 2009, 05:50 AM   #24
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Are you still going to raise your prices? Are you going to still buy "A" series cards, are the "E" series not pro enough? I know my hvx200 will be happy.
Ofcourse...but thats more to to with the fact I'm going to own the P2 equipment I'll be using and not a HDV camera as before and then renting P2.

For a rental house though and broadcasters doing 24/7 news the expensive cards till might be the right choice for some users.
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Old June 9th, 2009, 05:44 PM   #25
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It looks like the first hint of the future for camera memory has come;

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

I know, this is just a little hickup, but you don't abandon a technology that has a healthy future.

I bet SXS and P2 to SDXC adapters are in the near future.
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