New E-P2 cards - Page 3 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders

Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders
All AG-HPX and AJ-PX Series camcorders and P2 / P2HD hardware.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old May 24th, 2009, 04:19 AM   #31
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia Vic
Posts: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noah Kadner View Post
That's fine but I've personally never, ever seen a Flash card, P2 or SDHC card stop working. I thought the whole point of this technology was no moving parts, lasts forever. So the idea of artificially limiting a card's life span to a specific number of cycles is about profit, not about 'protecting' users from some sort of failure.
If a memory fails on it's own, that's fine. It happens once and you'll know about it immediately and get another when. But why should it fail just because the software tells it to? Imagine if you bought a computer that said on the box, will stop working in exactly two years to protect you from experiencing the potential of a natural failure. Wouldn't you feel kinda gypped?

-Noah
Hi Noah,
I have many industry colleagues who repair current electronic equipment, they tell me (and I believe them) that most goods built these days are built to last not much more than the warranty period.
I have personally owned many devices that last not much longer than the warranty period, that is where I base my opinions on longevity of current electronic devices.
I believe that as you pointed out above (said on the box, will stop working in exactly two years) that is the case , it's just called another name,"Warranty"
seriously, does anyone believe a R-series P2 card will "Last Forever" , I don't.

EG, about 3months ago I replaced 7 DVD burners in my Burn Tower (with brand new units of course), now two burners in the stack are failing to burn/verify and will have to be replaced, they may have only burnt 30 or so disc's each. they all have 12 months warraty,go figure ?, Nothing lasts forever.
Cheers
__________________
Tom K
www.olinevideo.com.au

Last edited by Tom Klein; May 24th, 2009 at 04:47 AM. Reason: typo's
Tom Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:07 PM   #32
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
Noah, look into MLC memory vs. SLC memory. Two different technologies, and SLC memory will last 10x as long as MLC.

MLC is cheaper. It's denser. You can store multiple bits per cell (hence the "M", meaning Multi).

SLC memory lasts much longer, and you can read lots of articles on MLC vs. SLC when you look into SSD drives.

SLC memory should last for 100,000 rewrite cycles, MLC memory lasts for about 10,000.

As to the question of whether reading the memory will cause it to wear out, I don't think so but don't know for sure. It's my understanding that it's "rewrite" cycles that are limiting the lifespan, MLC only supports up to 10,000 rewrites. So possibly you could read it a million billion times but write only 10,000 times?

Last edited by Barry Green; May 25th, 2009 at 10:48 PM.
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 06:51 PM   #33
Major Player
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 384
Barry - it will be important to me, and I'm sure to others, that if the card expiration is indeed software-controlled, is it based only on the number of record cycles, or is playback also counted. If playback is counted, I will ensure that I use older series cards for frequent playback and the E-series for record and dump once. If Panasonic could clear this up it would be helpful.
Mark Donnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 08:53 PM   #34
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Singapore, Rep of SINGAPORE
Posts: 749
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Green View Post

MLC memory should last for 100,000 rewrite cycles, SLC memory lasts for about 10,000.
Barry,

I believe you got that mixed up :-). SLC memory will last 100,000 rewrite cycles, whereas MLC will only go 10,000 times.

Cheers,
TS
TingSern Wong is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 10:48 PM   #35
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
Edited and fixed.
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 25th, 2009, 11:20 PM   #36
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia Vic
Posts: 160
100,000 rewrite cycles?
the connectors will be well worn out prior to that being achieved, in the real world of field shooting, grit etc will get amongst the sockets and pins, and speed up the wear factor.

May I re-say with respect, "Nothing lasts forever".

Cheers
__________________
Tom K
www.olinevideo.com.au
Tom Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2009, 12:22 PM   #37
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Klein View Post
100,000 rewrite cycles?
the connectors will be well worn out prior to that being achieved, in the real world of field shooting, grit etc will get amongst the sockets and pins, and speed up the wear factor.

May I re-say with respect, "Nothing lasts forever".

Cheers
Connectors have been tested to 30,000 insert/remove cycles. But with the bigger cards, it may come to the point where people never even remove their cards. If you had two 64gb cards, which could record 12 hours of 720/24pN footage in AVC-I 50, it's conceivable that you could leave those two cards in-camera all day long, and transfer at night. You'd never need to swap, as you couldn't physically shoot more (in a normal 10-hour day) than you could fit on the cards!

In any case, yes, 100,000 rewrite cycles. And yes, I've asked and been told that read cycles do not contribute to them wearing down, you can read as many times as you want, it's writing that wears out the memory.
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 26th, 2009, 06:40 PM   #38
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia Vic
Posts: 160
Hi Barry,

If the connectors have been tested to 30.000 insertion / remove cycles, does that mean that they failed at that point or did they consider it was their life cycle limit ?. Saying that they are good for 100.000 writes but only testing insert / remove to one third of that, leaves me thinking Hmmmmm.

Bigger capacity P2 cards sure will reduce the need for removal for reading on bigger shoots, but for many shoots as news/EFP/etc, shooting 10-20mins is about the norm.
The two slot P2 camera's will have cards removed /inserted many more times than the four and five slot P2 cameras.
The newer E-series will be welcomed by many users, I doubt whether the R-series will survive the long haul, probably fade into techno oblivion.
cheers
__________________
Tom K
www.olinevideo.com.au

Last edited by Tom Klein; May 26th, 2009 at 06:41 PM. Reason: typo
Tom Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2009, 03:43 PM   #39
Barry Wan Kenobi
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 3,863
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Klein View Post
If the connectors have been tested to 30.000 insertion / remove cycles, does that mean that they failed at that point or did they consider it was their life cycle limit ?
It is my understanding that they had a machine physically plug in and remove the card 30,000 times with no failures, and they said "okay, that's good enough for us." There was no failure, but 30,000 times of plugging it in and out (which equates to inserting and pulling the card 3x a day every day for 10 years) was enough to get the point across.

Quote:
Saying that they are good for 100.000 writes but only testing insert / remove to one third of that, leaves me thinking Hmmmmm.
Why? Many folks don't even pull their cards out at all, using the camera as the offload station. But if 30,000 times aren't enough for you, well... :)
Barry Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2009, 04:33 PM   #40
Sponsor: Abel CineTech
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 360
Panasonic has released some details about the new firmware needed to make the E-Series cards be all they can be. Check out the chart on their site - https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...te.htm#p2_card

And I wrote up a little article on my blog as well - E-Series P2 Card Firmware Updates | CineTechnica
__________________
Andy Shipsides -Camera Technology Specialist
AbelCineTech, New York - Visit our Blog - http://blog.abelcine.com
Andy Shipsides is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2009, 07:11 PM   #41
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 1,267
Hey Andy,
Thanks for the valuable information. It seems like Panasonic has kept quiet about this issue as no one has mentioned it to me before seeing your post and I have asked a lot of people about these cards coming out. Seems to me if Panasonic is saying delivery is at the end of May but the the cards will not function fully until they release a firmware upgrade which is anywhere from 1 to 3 months after the cards are available they are not putting their best foot forward.
Daniel Epstein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 27th, 2009, 07:44 PM   #42
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia Vic
Posts: 160
Hi Barry,

Some folks in News and simmilar demanding areas will insert and withdraw many times during a days work, sure some shooters will never withdraw , so maybe if the tests assumed that 30.000 would be enough, well, Hmmmmm.
I personally would have run the tests to the point of some sort of failure, much like any tests on products these days to determine a realworld lifespan.
Also in the realworld there are issues encountered that can't be duplicated on the "test bench", that may also have a great bearing on longevity.
News crews in my experience generally use smaller cards (8g-16g)as they can have more cards per camera for a days shoot, and off load times are faster than dumping a full 32or64gig for example, and helps to make the camera op to shoot "tight" knowing they have say a 15min limit @ DV50, or 30min Limit for DVCpro25.

Andy, Great piece of info re these new E-series cards, I see that my camera (SPX800)is one that dosen't need firmware, that's nice to know. Interesting that most products on pana's list that are good with the new E-series cards are the older units.

Cheers
__________________
Tom K
www.olinevideo.com.au

Last edited by Tom Klein; May 27th, 2009 at 10:42 PM. Reason: More info
Tom Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2009, 04:22 AM   #43
Trustee
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cornsay Durham UK
Posts: 1,941
I just got my 301 today, I ordered and paid for four 32gb E cards, it has been delivered with A cards so I am very happy bunny!
__________________
Over 15 minutes in Broadcast Film and TV production: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1044352/
Gary Nattrass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 28th, 2009, 08:09 PM   #44
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia Vic
Posts: 160
Hi Gary,

well done, Just make sure they don't want to "swap the cards over" when the e-series hits the shelves.

cheers
__________________
Tom K
www.olinevideo.com.au
Tom Klein is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2009, 06:07 AM   #45
Panasonic Broadcast
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Secaucus, NJ 07094
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Shipsides View Post
And I wrote up a little article on my blog as well - E-Series P2 Card Firmware Updates | CineTechnica
Hi Andy,

I read your blog and then spent the next hour or so trying to track down your source for the VFR statement. I think you have it misstated.

From our Compatibility Sheet: Without the upgrade, P2 camcorder and recording equipment may experience error messages when recording over multiple P2 cards (Spanned Recording).
These “REC Warning Error” messages may appear in the P2 camcorder’s viewfinder or the P2 recorder’s LCD screen during Spanned Recording when utilizing the following modes:
a. INTERVAL REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)
b. LOOP REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)
c. NORMAL REC MODE (in DV or DVCPRO)

Note that all of these are Standard Definition Modes.

d. VARIABLE FRAME RATE RECORDING/NORMAL in the 12p or 15p VFR settings in DVCPRO HD
720/24pN, 720/25pN or 720/30pN (AG-HVX200/AG-HVX200A, AG-HPX170 and AG-HPX500 models only)


This is the part you had me chasing after, as on your blog it sounded like it was in all VFR modes and cameras and it is not. And even better it isn't the more common side of the VFR use, more people do overcrank vs. undercrank. Good news is that it is a quick fix and that fix isn't that far away.

Best regards,

Jan
__________________
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Panasonic Solutions Company, Product Manager for 3D and Handheld Cameras
Jan Crittenden Livingston is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > Panasonic P2HD / AVCCAM / AVCHD / DV Camera Systems > Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:45 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network