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Old June 4th, 2009, 12:20 AM   #1
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Jellyvision on the HPX300

So i took everyones advice and went to a camera shop in LA and checked out the new Panasonic HPX300, JVC HM700 and the Sony EX3. My overall impressions? Wow, the Panasonic was a great camera! Great weight, features, balance. Everything!

I'm really looking into getting the HPX300. But the one thing that I just cant get out of my mind: The Jellyvision effect of CMOS. When zoomed in, and panning left and right The image wobbles.

Is there anything that can be done to counteract this? Don't simply say: Don't zoom in! It does it while your barely zoomed in too! Can this be fixed by a firmware update in the future? Or is this camera gimped by this flaw permanently?

The Sony EX3 also has a CMOS chip. Does it suffer the same problem? I didn't get the opportunity to check wobble on it.

What are my options? How does one "shoot around this flaw" from what an articlle i read in HDVideoPro suggested, (but never answered).
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Old June 4th, 2009, 02:55 AM   #2
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I would be interested to know what shutter speed and if it was set at progressive.

Also was this just in the viewfinder as that is a lot worse than when you have rendered final pictures.

I am currently doing tests and have set to shoot at avcintra 100 1920x1080i 25np with a shutter speed of 50.

The pictures look very good and I am not aware of the wobble problem once final files are produced.
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Old June 4th, 2009, 04:42 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Furtado View Post
Is there anything that can be done to counteract this? Don't simply say: Don't zoom in! It does it while your barely zoomed in too!
The issue is related to the amount of relative motion, so the more zoomed in you are, the more you'll be affected by it. Zoomed out, you'll see it less. Zoom in to full telephoto, you'll see it more. Just like how handheld shakycam is exaggerated at telephoto and minimized at wide angle.

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Can this be fixed by a firmware update in the future?
At this time, the word is no.

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Or is this camera gimped by this flaw permanently?
*all* CMOS cameras on the market today are "gimped by this flaw". Some to more of a degree than others, but they all do it. It has to do with the "rolling shutter" on CMOS camcorders.

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The Sony EX3 also has a CMOS chip. Does it suffer the same problem?
Of course. They all do. The Red One does. The Flip HD does. Your cell phone camera does. The HV20 does. The Grass Valley Infinity does. The Nikon D90 and EOS 5D Mk II do. Every CMOS camcorder out there does.

The problem is exaggerated by the amount of zoom, and, in the case of the HPX300, the wobble/skew is worse in 1080/24p mode than in any other mode. The HPX300 shows *less* wobble than the EX3 when in 720/60p, 720/24p, or 1080/60i mode. It's only really in 1080/24p mode that it shows more.

Also, the HPX300 has longer telephoto reach, so that can make it seem to have more, but when set to the same focal length you'll find that (except in 1080/24p mode) the HPX300 has the same or less wobble/skew than the EX3.

If you want to absolutely avoid the issue entirely, you'd have to go with a CCD-based camera for that.

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What are my options? How does one "shoot around this flaw" from what an articlle i read in HDVideoPro suggested, (but never answered).
Don't try to shoot "Bourne Supremacy" on a CMOS camera. Move it like a film camera. Abide by the ASC charts for panning speeds. And if you're in a situation where you need to have more telephoto and handheld, I'd advise investigating 720/24p instead of 1080/24p.

Things that exaggerate the effect are the same things that exaggerate motion judder in film. If you shoot a picket fence from a 90-degree angle, waving it back and forth, on full telephoto, you're gonna see it at its worst. If you instead widen out some, and shoot that fence from a 45-degree angle, and slow down the pans, you'll find that you can tame the wobble quite a bit.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 04:27 AM   #4
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Don't try to shoot "Bourne Supremacy" on a CMOS camera. Move it like a film camera.
Not to be pedantic, but the Bourne films were shot on film :-)

The CMOS wobble on these cameras is not bad enough to affect handheld camerawork. At least not unless you really do have the shakes in a big way. I've shot all sorts of high action footage with my EX3 and not once has the CMOS skew issue caused any issue for me. I'd assume that it is the same for the 300/301.

People need to shoot real footage for real projects instead of going out and trying to force the effect to be shown through 'test' footage. In general use, with the exception of wildlife filming with extreme telephoto lenses, I cannot for the life of me think of any situation during normal shooting where the camera would need to be moved around with enough violent action to show the skew in an exaggerated way.

Lastly, can we please get away from the whole 'which camera has less skew' thing. All these CMOS cameras suffer from it. The reason these cameras produce the picture quality that they do is purely because CMOS chips have allowed it at a low price level. If people want a camera that has similar picture quality with CCD's then I'm afraid that pushes the price up, which is precisely why you end up in HPX2700 and PDW-700 territory.
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Old June 5th, 2009, 04:35 AM   #5
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Well said Barry and Simon.

I have had my 301E for a week now and it is a superb camera, I know its limitations now and with my background of film know what I can get away with.

It is not a zapp and grab camera and has very few auto settings so it needs respect and if used with care and attention will produce some stunning pictures.

Yes P2 is also expensive compared to SDHC in an adaptor but it is a pro level camera and I need the belt and braces broadcast approach to storage if I am to work totally tapeless.
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Old June 10th, 2009, 01:12 AM   #6
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Now I understand why Panasonic tried to fight against Cmos cameraes. The wobbling effect can make it unusable. Yesterday i mounted two small cameraes on two bicykles. One was a Sony DV camera with no cmos and the other a canon with cmos. On the bicykle there are small shakes and it makes the Cmos camera footage absolutely unusable but my older sony DV camera works fine. They were both mounted - solid -with superclams.
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Old June 20th, 2009, 03:16 PM   #7
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I'm just torn. I need to stay in the P2 format for an upcoming project so I can work with the other cameras in the project, (200a's) But, if the 300 has this skewing problem i'm afraid it's a DOA camera for me.

I just can't understand why this hasn't been reported a a big problem? Don't pan quickly?! What kind of solution is that? As an operator I have to pan and move the camera as the action dictates. I can't lean over and tell my director or producer on the set that "hey, my camera can't pan that fact..can you slow down the shot we've planned?"

Seriously, am I in some sorta bizzaro dimension here? Or is this skewing problem being over exaggerated?

I don't have enough clout to ask the camera store to "give me a loaner for a few days." to go out and test shoot this to see real world results. But then again, i can't afford to return a camera and pay a restocking fee. That'd be thousands of dollars!
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Old June 20th, 2009, 04:35 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham View Post
Not to be pedantic, but the Bourne films were shot on film :-)

The CMOS wobble on these cameras is not bad enough to affect handheld camerawork. At least not unless you really do have the shakes in a big way. I've shot all sorts of high action footage with my EX3 and not once has the CMOS skew issue caused any issue for me. I'd assume that it is the same for the 300/301.

People need to shoot real footage for real projects instead of going out and trying to force the effect to be shown through 'test' footage. In general use, with the exception of wildlife filming with extreme telephoto lenses, I cannot for the life of me think of any situation during normal shooting where the camera would need to be moved around with enough violent action to show the skew in an exaggerated way.

Lastly, can we please get away from the whole 'which camera has less skew' thing. All these CMOS cameras suffer from it. The reason these cameras produce the picture quality that they do is purely because CMOS chips have allowed it at a low price level. If people want a camera that has similar picture quality with CCD's then I'm afraid that pushes the price up, which is precisely why you end up in HPX2700 and PDW-700 territory.
I'm going to be pedantic too, not all CMOS cameras have this problem as some do have global shutters (Weisscam HS2 for instance) - I realise that it's rather pricey though!

Steve
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Old June 20th, 2009, 04:37 PM   #9
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I just can't understand why this hasn't been reported a a big problem? !
I talked about it ages ago and most people told me to shut up and that I was dreaming about it!
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Old June 20th, 2009, 05:11 PM   #10
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I saw the problem clear as day when i picked up the camera. Despite what the sales guy told me "you won't notice it in the field". It's there!

If you zoom in AT ALL pretty much in 1080P 24P the image wobbles. Making handheld useless.

I just don't want to buy it, and 4 months later Panasonic makes a "new improved" one that fixes this problem and i'm stuck with a dud.
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Old June 20th, 2009, 06:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Jon Furtado View Post
I saw the problem clear as day when i picked up the camera. Despite what the sales guy told me "you won't notice it in the field". It's there!

If you zoom in AT ALL pretty much in 1080P 24P the image wobbles. Making handheld useless.

I just don't want to buy it, and 4 months later Panasonic makes a "new improved" one that fixes this problem and i'm stuck with a dud.
Yes but is that what you are seeing in the viewfinder or on the final produced master???

I agree that on my 301 in the viewfinder the images for 1080i 25np are wobbly but once I have outputted from FCP in pro res 422 I dont see anywhere near as much of a problem.
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Old June 20th, 2009, 11:44 PM   #12
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So the final product is devoid of wobble? Sigh..i'm just going to have to pony up the cash and rent one for a weekend and do some test shooting and editing. It's the only way i'll be able to figure this out.
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Old June 21st, 2009, 10:19 AM   #13
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Hey Jon You might be able to get a dealer to let you borrow a 300 so you can do the test. Personally I ended up getting a 500 while I wait to see how well the 300 performs in the real world. The wobble was not my only concern about the CMOS and I didn't like the 1/3 inch size that much either. I understand the 300 has a place in the product line but I think Panasonic may be not getting the spacing quite right between the bottom of the product line up to the top.
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