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Old February 15th, 2005, 03:38 AM   #16
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Being a dvx owner and user for more than a year, and having done a couple of short films and broadcast commercials with it, I have to say that I'm really looking forward to this upcoming camera. However, there are a few things that seriously trouble me- the tape recording.

From what we can assume from Jan's post over here, there doesn't even seem to be a tape device watsoever. And Jan's the only "official"source, compared to all the rumours we hear around. I consider the lack of a tape device a real mistake. Mini dv is cheap and that's what's driving the thousands and thousands of sales of Mini DV type of pro (and prosumer) equipment. If this camera does have a tape device, it really does HAVE to have the capability to record both dvcpro50 and 25 to tape- not only to p2. And dvcpro50 must definetlty make it to tape- I'll state my reasons further ahead.

There could be, However, a very interesting twist and here's my two cents on the matter- Knowing that Panasonic guys are not dumb businessman and know their market (they did come up with the DVX) , than, by analysing Jan's statement, I assume that If both DVCPRO 25 and 50 will NOT be recorded to tape, it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards!! While these cannot compete in speed data transfer fast enough for an HD signal, it probably is enough to support the standard definition 50 and 25 streams.

Even tough this may be more economical, I would really hope to know just this tinny little detail from Jan... Is there tape on the camera? If so, Jan, please, oh please tell me that both 50 and 25 signals can be recorded to tape... The option of 4:2:2 color space is what will set yur camera above the rest in the SD low budget market- sticking with Tape dv 25 puts you AGAIN just on par with the XL2. And with expensive HD recording and current broadcast standard sticking to sd till probably 2008, please take this oportunity to place affordable PROFESSIONAL recording SD media to low budget production houses (like mine!)
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Old February 15th, 2005, 08:22 AM   #17
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Hi Sergio,

<< it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards! >>

Just wanted to point out, that P2 media already are SD cards. P2 media is simply an array of four SD cards held within a PC card adapter. See my link regarding P2 media information for more details.

;-)
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Old February 15th, 2005, 11:42 AM   #18
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Doesn't a standard SD card have a much lower ability to handle high data streams? I think that was the point. Single SD cards rather than expensive arrays.
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Old February 15th, 2005, 02:44 PM   #19
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A good set up would be tape for 25 mbps, and P2 cards for the 50mbps.
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Old February 15th, 2005, 02:50 PM   #20
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I agree. Except it's not really clear if it has P2 *and* a tape transport. I'm hoping it's both!
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Old February 15th, 2005, 07:34 PM   #21
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<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Hi Sergio,

<< it will NOT be recorded in P2 media but.... In SD Cards! >>

Just wanted to point out, that P2 media already are SD cards. P2 media is simply an array of four SD cards held within a PC card adapter. See my link regarding P2 media information for more details.

;-) -->>>


Woops, sorry, Chris, just seemed to make sense...But, still, with 2 gb sd cards coming to the market, and seing their price, it's really hard to accept a 4000 Dollar P2 4gig "magazine"... Acceptable probably only for HD, but definatly not for any type of SD recording, may it be dvcpro 50 or 25!
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Old February 16th, 2005, 08:55 AM   #22
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I read a long time ago that the original hope for the P2 system was to have 4, 4GB SD cards in the PCMCIA adapter, making the magazine 16GB.

If Panny wanted to they could just include largest cards available, only with camera sales, for much cheaper than they are on the market. Although, I admit, I don't know how that might affect the rest of their flash-mem business.
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Old February 18th, 2005, 02:01 PM   #23
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden : Hi, The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area. Does that help? Jan -->>>

No it doesn't.
Why is the strength not there?
Why the strength is there in dvcpro50 cameras to record double speed and in varicam to quadruple speed?
If some minidv-tape substance is too weak (how on earth you can still rewind/fastforward them?), just bring a little bit stronger minidv-tape to markets.
Or do you mean that your new camera's motor does not have strength to roll the tape fast enough? And stronger motor would cost over ten bucks more?

btw, can't you use big dv-casettes (not dvcam/dvcpro/hd) to record with dvcpro vtr's? If I remember correctly I used them sometimes in the 90's...

I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. Loud echo bouncing from stonewalls: "NOOOooo..."
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Old February 18th, 2005, 03:11 PM   #24
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<< I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. >>

The responsibility of having enough power to do the job falls squarely upon the shoulders of the shooter. An experienced videographer brings more than enough battery power to a field shoot... there's no excuse for running out of juice.
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Old February 18th, 2005, 03:29 PM   #25
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : <<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden : Hi, The tensile strength is just not there to record the DVCPROHD signal on an Mini-DV tape, it just cannot travel fast enough in the transport area. Does that help? Jan -->>>

>No it doesn't. Why is the strength not there?

It is Metal Evaporated tape. Not Metal Particle tape. It is thinner than the MP tape. Take a look at the size of the 60 minute tapes. The DVCPRO tape is twice as large.

>Why the strength is there in dvcpro50 cameras to record double speed and in varicam to quadruple speed?

We record DVCPRO formats on Metal Particle Tape not ME, much thicker, more robust.


>If some minidv-tape substance is too weak (how on earth you can still rewind/fastforward them?), just bring a little bit stronger minidv-tape to markets.

You wouldn't be able to get a useable time on them. It is the thinness of the backing.

>Or do you mean that your new camera's motor does not have strength to roll the tape fast enough? And stronger motor would cost over ten bucks more?

No it is about the tape and the DVCPRO formats.

>btw, can't you use big dv-casettes (not dvcam/dvcpro/hd) to record with dvcpro vtr's? If I remember correctly I used them sometimes in the 90's...

No, that would be out of the SMPTE Format. There are larger MP tapes for longer record times, but ME is not an acceptable medium for the DVCPRO formats.

>I can clearly foresee this scene somewhere far, far away, where electricity is not available and cameraman's other p2-card is filling up and the other one is in the laptop just finishing transfer and battery from laptop dies. Loud echo bouncing from stonewalls: "NOOOooo..."

I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. The thing is the P2 Card does not lose the recording, it will still be on the P2 card until you wipe it clean. This is a scenario that has no long term ramification other than, point out the need for pre-production planning. This is not new to the job description.

Hope that helps,

Jan
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Old February 19th, 2005, 06:09 AM   #26
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: It is Metal Evaporated tape. Not Metal Particle tape. It is thinner than the MP tape. Take a look at the size of the 60 minute tapes. The DVCPRO tape is twice as large.
We record DVCPRO formats on Metal Particle Tape not ME, much thicker, more robust.
You wouldn't be able to get a useable time on them. It is the thinness of the backing. -->>>

Thanks Jan for clarification.

How do you define "useable time"?
If 8 minits in p2 card is useable time, then why wouldn't same time on tape also be useable?

And if you would enable only 24p/25p in HD (ca. 40 Mbps) with tape, then the "miniDV-sized-casette-filled-with-dvcpro-tape" would last ca. 20 minits!

Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

I think this would be optimal solution for next couple of years, if you could shoot normal fps (24/25/30) to tape and cranked overspeed (up to 60fps(100Mbps)) to p2.

<<<-- I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. -->>>

Well, you know that isn't the same.
When going to remote locations, you can always buy a dozen of extra tapes so you'll never run out of them and can use them in the next project anyway.
When p2 card costs half of what camera does, you just can't buy dozen of them for "just in case".

Anyway, thanks again for listening us users and I hope that you pass these opinions to your design department.
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Old February 19th, 2005, 01:45 PM   #27
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...
-->>>

I guess it depends on which country's film industry you mean. In the US, for many years 400 ft has been standard for 16 mm and 1,000 ft for 35 mm. Each has a running time of 10-11 minutes. If you mean countries where Arriflex 2Cs (and the old Eclair CM-3s) were routinely used (inside metal or fiberglass blimps) even on sound stages, yeah, 400-ft 35-mm loads were more common. But now, Panaflexes, self-blimped Arris, and Moviecams -- all accepting 1,000-ft loads -- are pretty common everywhere.
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Old February 19th, 2005, 06:11 PM   #28
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
How do you define "useable time"?
If 8 minits in p2 card is useable time, then why wouldn't same time on tape also be useable?

On tape, I think longer run times are expected.

>Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

Actually I think these are 10 minute loads, but I may be wrong.

<<<-- I have heard that same cry from the guys that ran out tape or ran out of batteries while using tape. -->>>

>Well, you know that isn't the same. When going to remote locations, you can always buy a dozen of extra tapes so you'll never run out of them and can use them in the next project anyway.

But you were talking about running out of battery power and frankly tape doesn't work too well without battery power either. It is a 6P Principle thing.

>When p2 card costs half of what camera does, you just can't buy dozen of them for "just in case".

But as long as I have battery, I don't need those extra tapes, now do I. ;-)

All the best, and thanks for sharing your concerns and ideas,

Jan
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Old February 20th, 2005, 12:38 AM   #29
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Hi Jan,

I just sold my HD-1 to purchase an FX-1. We are about to shoot a movie that has snow scenes in it. Out here in California, some snow sticks around until late Spring. Knowing this, would you recommend I go ahead and by a Sony now or would my patience be rewarded if I wait to buy the new Panny? I dare you to answer this one:) But I'll sing at your wedding if you do.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 06:07 AM   #30
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<<<-- Originally posted by Betsy Moore :
I just sold my HD-1 to purchase an FX-1. We are about to shoot a movie that has snow scenes in it. Out here in California, some snow sticks around until late Spring. Knowing this, would you recommend I go ahead and by a Sony now or would my patience be rewarded if I wait to buy the new Panny? I dare you to answer this one:) But I'll sing at your wedding if you do. -->>>

Betsy,

Please understand that there is no way in my heart of hearts that I could ever recommend you to purchase the Sony camera for a number of reasons. 1. I work for Panasonic. 2. The Sony camera is based on a consumer format and I think that is the last thing a professional needs to concern herself with at a time when money and effort are being spent in earnest. 3. Shooting snow with a camera that is limited in its dynamic range will prove to be the most challenging shooting you have ever done.

Coupled with all of that I know when the new Panasonic camera will be out and frankly it will not make the spring thaw in California. So my recommendation is to either rent the camera for your shoot and struggle with its challanges and then save what you have left over for our new camera or buy a DVX100A as it will still have market value as a SD camera once our new HD camera is out. You should be able to sell it quite easily if you really want to be in the HD domain. ;-)

(Now I know that is flame material on a board where there is a high concentration of HDV lovers, but there is nothing that anyone can say that will make me take it back. I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on.)

Thank you for the offer of singing at my wedding, but I actually just got married in October to the most wonderful man. We had a bagpiper for our gathering and recessional, that was a treat that none of our guests had ever had the pleasure of hearing before. The acoustics of a small church with the richness of the bagpipe's throaty song. We were married in the church where Patrick Henry said "Give me liberty or give me death."

Anyhow, I hope that I have not offended you with my response, but you did put me in a position.

Best regards,

Jan
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