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Old February 20th, 2005, 07:24 AM   #31
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: On tape, I think longer run times are expected. -->>>

Can you explain your logics with this?
Why would somebody complain when $10 tape has only twice the length than $2000 p2 card?

<<<-- Actually I think these are 10 minute loads, but I may be wrong. -->>>

4-perf 35mm 24fps is 90 feet/min.

<<<-- But you were talking about running out of battery power and frankly tape doesn't work too well without battery power either. -->>>

I was trying to tell that with these p2 cards, you'll have to keep on eye of both camera batteries AND laptop (or whatever you use to move video out of p2) batteries. That's twice the trouble compared today.
KISS principle is very needed in more demanding situations, so option for HD to tape would be lifesaver in many cases.

And if you would like to double that tape length, how much bigger vcr part would small dvcpro casette need compared to miniDV? Two cubic inches?
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Old February 20th, 2005, 07:38 AM   #32
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<<<-- Originally posted by Lawrence Bansbach: I guess it depends on which country's film industry you mean. In the US, for many years 400 ft has been standard for 16 mm and 1,000 ft for 35 mm. Each has a running time of 10-11 minutes. If you mean countries where Arriflex 2Cs (and the old Eclair CM-3s) were routinely used (inside metal or fiberglass blimps) even on sound stages, yeah, 400-ft 35-mm loads were more common. But now, Panaflexes, self-blimped Arris, and Moviecams -- all accepting 1,000-ft loads -- are pretty common everywhere. -->>>

I guess you are right about depening on country.
Here in Finland Arri LT/535/435/BL all are rented usually with 400 ft mags.
And of course getting 1000 ft rolls, you need to place special order and it might take some time.
Anyway Finland is so small area economically that more than half of all those ca. dozen of long feature films made yearly, are shot on 16mm or hd.
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Old February 20th, 2005, 07:59 AM   #33
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti :
Can you explain your logics with this? Why would somebody complain when $10 tape has only twice the length than $2000 p2 card?

Who is to say how much the card is, this is in the flux of changing. Just like the price of SD Memory. I have 2 64MB cards, one cost me $124, and the other cost me $32. Frankly, folks in the DV world have been used to 60 minutes. DVCPRO50 has a max load of 30 on tape. So on tape there is an expectation. With P2 it is still a technology that has the benefit of continuing R & D. And there are over 100 companies doing R & D in SD memory. These can only increase in size and reduce in cost. So try to think of P2 as medialess technology, You can read and write 100,000 times. A different frame of reference is needed.

>I was trying to tell that with these p2 cards, you'll have to keep on eye of both camera batteries AND laptop (or whatever you use to move video out of p2) batteries. That's twice the trouble compared today. KISS principle is very needed in more demanding situations, so option for HD to tape would be lifesaver in many cases.

My point is that what ever the plan is, for the production, that is what you plan for, so saying that you would run out of batteries is more of a reflection on the lack of planning. Planning is everything in production or at least that is the way it looks from here. So you don't have to deal with planning to buy extra tape, you plan to make sure you have enough batteries, it is simple either way.

>And if you would like to double that tape length, how much bigger vcr part would small dvcpro casette need compared to miniDV? Two cubic inches? -->>>

There is no small DVCPRO cassette. It is a Medium cassette in comparison to the Mini DV. Since you do not know the form factor, I can only steer you to a dealer that sells both the DVX and the SDX or Varicam. Pop the side off the DVX and then one of the other two. There is a significant difference in the size of the mechanism. Once you have done this you can make a more educated guess as to the additional space required. It is surprizingly more than what you guess here.

All the best,

Jan
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Old February 20th, 2005, 10:41 AM   #34
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Howdy from Texas,

Jan wrote...

<< Now I know that is flame material on a board where there is a high concentration of HDV lovers >>

Actually there is a high concentration of Everything lovers -- we try not to be too centric to one format or another, and besides, we don't do flaming! (Or put it this way, if flaming is done, it has a tendency to mysteriously disappear).

For Betsy Moore: sorry you missed out on the chance to sing at Jan's wedding! Sounds like the bagpiper was a class act, though. Cheers,
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Old February 21st, 2005, 12:46 AM   #35
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Jan, just wanted to say thanks for the info. Having a rep on a forum like this I think shows a hell of a lot of goodwill towards the customer and it is greatly appreciated.
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Old February 21st, 2005, 10:47 AM   #36
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Jan, can you tell us at this point if Panasonic will let us use third-party cards in the slot? I guess you have read my speculation on using IBM microdrive-equipped PC-cards... of course a hard disk is somewhat less reliable, slower and consumes slighly more power... but it would make sense to use hard disks while the economics of solid state get better.
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Old February 21st, 2005, 11:44 AM   #37
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Don't know whether they'd work or not according to the connectors yet, but... would those microdrives work at all yet? I looked at some specs and they seem *really* slow... something like 36Mbps transfer rate, which wouldn't be enough for even DVCPRO50.

The price is compelling, but I don't know if it'd actually work...
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Old February 21st, 2005, 01:32 PM   #38
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittendenz: Who is to say how much the card is, this is in the flux of changing. Just like the price of SD Memory. -->>>

Yep, somewhere was already these rumours about 1TB p2 card and when and what price, but I'd guess that even id Panny subsidizes p2's and p2's become "main stream", it's quite impossible to beat Moore's Law with this. So one might get 8GB p2 with $1k in 2006 and 32GB with $500 in 2008, but question is: what before that?

<<<-- Frankly, folks in the DV world have been used to 60 minutes. DVCPRO50 has a max load of 30 on tape. So on tape there is an expectation. -->>>

So to go on with that logics; 60mins for miniDV, 30mins for dvcpro50 and 20mins for dvcproHD?

<<<-- There is no small DVCPRO cassette. It is a Medium cassette in comparison to the Mini DV. Since you do not know the form factor, I can only steer you to a dealer that sells both the DVX and the SDX or Varicam. Pop the side off the DVX and then one of the other two. There is a significant difference in the size of the mechanism. Once you have done this you can make a more educated guess as to the additional space required. It is surprizingly more than what you guess here. -->>>

Sorry about my sloppy choise of word, but let's change that "small" to "medium" and then be happy.
And believe me, I know dvcpro; I've shot one documentary and one interactive movie with it and many hours of other things.
So can you now tell me how surprizingly significant the difference is?
And lets remember that ENG cameras are not designed just to be as small as possible.
If one compares JVC GY-DV500 with Panny AJ-D410A, there isn't so remarkable difference in size, is there? (At least the weight is same.)
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Old February 21st, 2005, 02:08 PM   #39
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But the JVC and the AJ-D410 are full size camcorders. What is your point?

My point was look at the size of the transport, and that is the difference.

Jan
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Old February 21st, 2005, 03:40 PM   #40
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Jan,
My point was that there is no big difference its size with miniDV and dvcpro ENG cameras.
So there don't have to be big difference in smaller cameras either.

Surely we don't think that dvcpro transport mechanism has somehow reached its final state and perfect design considering the size, even that there hasn't even been any attempt to make smaller sized dvcpro camera than ENG.

So, I'd like to see smaller camera with 40Mbps recording mechanism to miniDV sized tape for 20 minutes. That's just my opinion and maybe developing that kind of vcr part is just too expensive.

Whenever I buy a new camera, I'd like it to be a long time investment also ecologically and not just disposable camera that one replaces every year. This tape+p2 solution sounds really nice, if it would be possible to record HD to tape some three years and after that when p2's have become main stream continue with same camera using them.

Adding tape mechanism just for SD seems a little bit backwards, because that needs smaller storage space, so need for using tape for that might cease even next year. Also need for SD anyway is decreasing when one has option for HD (and better than HDV) in the same camera.

How much cheaper the new camera would be without tape mechanism after all?
Not price of a one p2 card?
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Old February 21st, 2005, 04:05 PM   #41
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I think getting on Jan for a decision made by a higher up is pointless. If the tape drive is there, then it is there. Just like the Sony, there is an option to downconvert to SD (for the tape) and pop it into your existing vtr/workflow situation.
geez folks. For those who don't already own a dvx100a, this is a good deal. While there are good points about not having a tape drive at all, I'm sure someone would complain if there wasn't. (like those of us who are looking for a general purpose camera for all sorts of work which defines most prosumer/independent types.) Maybe I want the camera and will have to wait as i save up for the P2 cards. Maybe the downconvert to SD will look awesome. maybe....

Can't please everyone, even before the camera isn't 'officially' anounced.

I'll make up my mind about the Sony Z1 and the new Pany after soemone gets there hands on it in the real world. Lots of things to consider, tape drive being the least fo them for me. Picture quality above all else. At least with the Sony I won't have to reinvest in all new equipment/software. Something I have to consider.
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Old February 21st, 2005, 04:46 PM   #42
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : Remember that movie industry has lived mainly with 400ft magazines (less than 4 minits) for over a century...

I think this would be optimal solution for next couple of years, if you could shoot normal fps (24/25/30) to tape and cranked overspeed (up to 60fps(100Mbps)) to p2.-->>>

it's always mildly irritating for me to read posts from people who think that a video camera should be designed with film as the distribution format... film is ugly and expensive! the framerates are way too slow to allow for fast movement, and it's a dying format.

while i love the depth and contrast you get with film, the numbers don't add up as a distribution format... these days hollywood makes more money off of dvd's than they do film, 55% of the internet-connected people in america have broadband, and hdtv will be the norm here in the states in just a few years... btw, anybody ever hear of digital projection?

people who want to put video on film tend to be a very vocal minority that has way too much influence on the design of video cameras... engineering in things like those bastard film framerates unnecessarily increases the cost of the camera for the majority of customers, who want to distribute video, not film.

beyond that, the problem with this thread isn't in the cost of p2 cards... it's the abysmal lack of silicone(aka codec) development by panasonic, sony, jvc, etc.

for example, in the world of compression and codecs, if dvcpro hd was develped 4 years ago(?), it's ancient history... to give you a real-world comparison, no compressionist worth his salt would ever make an internet video clip with a codec that old... why should video pros have to compromise?

what should be happening right now is the implementation of modern i-frame codecs for video acquisition... if you look at windows media, h.264, even cineform, the technology has been around plenty long enuf to put it on silicone... in fact, dvd players using some of those chipsets(codecs) already exist, although probably not in a true i-frame format.

mpeg2-based hdv is incredibly disappointing... for that bitrate, you could have better than dvcprohd quality, if you were using a real codec.

anyway, that's my 2 cents :-)
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Old February 21st, 2005, 04:53 PM   #43
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<<<-- Originally posted by Toke Lahti : Jan, My point was that there is no big difference its size with miniDV and dvcpro ENG cameras. So there don't have to be big difference in smaller cameras either. >>

Actually there is a difference. The JVC is oversized in its body so that it can be shoulder mounted. The transport chassis is a much different size. But the AJ-D410 is also the large cassette. The AJSDX900's casset is larger than the JVC by at least half again, if not a little more.

<< Surely we don't think that dvcpro transport mechanism has somehow reached its final state and perfect design considering the size, even that there hasn't even been any attempt to make smaller sized dvcpro camera than ENG. >>

Actually I think it is a wonderful piece of engineering. Works fine, lasts a long time. If it isn't broken whyt fix it. The smaller DVCPRO camera can easily be accomodated with P2.

<< So, I'd like to see smaller camera with 40Mbps recording mechanism to miniDV sized tape for 20 minutes. That's just my opinion and maybe developing that kind of vcr part is just too expensive. >>

The problem is that would be hugely expensive, when I can do 16 minutes of DVCPRO to one 4GB card.

<< Whenever I buy a new camera, I'd like it to be a long time investment also ecologically and not just disposable camera that one replaces every year. This tape+p2 solution sounds really nice, if it would be possible to record HD to tape some three years and after that when p2's have become main stream continue with same camera using them. >>

I think you are worrying too much, wait till you see what it is. If it works for you then buy it, if not then there are other solutions. My feeling is that this is a very workable solution.

<< Adding tape mechanism just for SD seems a little bit backwards, because that needs smaller storage space, so need for using tape for that might cease even next year. Also need for SD anyway is decreasing when one has option for HD (and better than HDV) in the same camera. >>

We haven't said whether we are even adding tape to this camera. This entire discussion is about whether DVCPRO and its higher forms could be recorded on a minDV cassette. Frankly I think that SD production will be here for a good number of years, but this camera will be flexible. Don't be premature in saying one way or the other. P2 is a very cool workflow, but it requires that you move away from Tape acquisition.

<< How much cheaper the new camera would be without tape mechanism after all? Not price of a one p2 card? >>

If I answered that question I would be in serious trouble. Somethings I can talk about, some things I cannot.

Best regards,

Jan
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Old February 21st, 2005, 08:18 PM   #44
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<<<-- Originally posted by Dan Euritt: mpeg2-based hdv is incredibly disappointing... for that bitrate, you could have better than dvcprohd quality, if you were using a real codec. -->>>

Acquisition and distribution codecs are whole diffrent ballgame.
Compression should be done only to final product after all effecting and color correcting. Otherwise you just loose quality with any lossy compression.

And using interframe compression as a native codec in editing is extremely hard. Every time you move in a timeline, computer has to calculate eg 15 hd frames. That's about 60 times more pixels than with intraframe sd codec. And calculating that compression on top of that.
No wonder all newest edit systems use somekind of intermedia codec with hdv. And all better video formats are i-frame only.

To this perspective it is sad and surprising that after a decade of 25Mbps dv, we're given a new "super" format that is still using the same bitrate(hdv).
It's like telling your 486 is good enough, you don't need any better.

We should be heading to bigger bitrates and greater color depths, but it seems, that quality does not sell in consumer/prosumer class anymore.
So it's all about cheapest possible way with quality that is barely acceptable for majority of consumers.
This leads to that consumer products get cheaper and less quality and high end professional products that gets all the time more expensive, because their volume gets smaller as consumer products get more popular.
And then there is nothing in between. You can't get s-vhs vcr in price range between 300 and 3000. Only cheaper or more expensive.
You can't get hd-camera between 5000 and 50000.
Can't get real hd monitor with 1080 lines between 2000 and 10000.

So I hope Panasonic changes things a little bit with this new camera.

Maybe some day every cinematographer can own the tool of his/her craft, like writer can own a pen, without having to rent it, everytime he/she wishes to write.
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Old February 21st, 2005, 08:28 PM   #45
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden: Actually I think it is a wonderful piece of engineering. Works fine, lasts a long time. If it isn't broken whyt fix it. -->>>

Speaking of broken, you know why Finnish Broadcasting Company abandoned dvcpro? Because those vcr's were always in repair :-(

<<<-- I think you are worrying too much, wait till you see what it is. If it works for you then buy it, if not then there are other solutions. My feeling is that this is a very workable solution. -->>>

I'm not worrying. I'm speculating and chatting because I'm so exited.
My biggest problem is how can I wait to get this new Panny.
If I need real 16:9 camera before that I'll have to take z1...
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