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Old April 4th, 2005, 01:52 PM   #1
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P2 Media Cards vs FIRESTORE 3 hour Value price test.

I read a post from Barry Green ( Refer to bottom of page ) and it got me thinking. If FireStore 3 hours of video seems limited what would it cost to do the same with P2 media cards. So I did some figures based on the current P2 prices for fun to see what it would cost to have three hours of P2 media. Again this was done for fun..... But it's interesting though!


These are approximate figures:
Mission to obtain 3 hours as Firestore would for around $800 dollars.
P2 Media 4gig $1,700 dollars


DVCPRO HD/24P - 13min per P2-4gig card x 5 cards = 65 minutes of HD / 5 P2 cards x 3 = 15 P2 cards x $1,700 = $25,500 dollars
For 3 hours 15 minutes of 24P DVCpro HD


For those that do 60P productions for the live feel. Or the 60i feel.

DVCPRO HD/60P- 4min per P2-4gig x 15 = 60min minutes of HD / 15 P2 cards x 3 = 45 P2 cards x $1,700 = $76,500 dollars
For 3 hours of 60P DVCPRO HD


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Source--
BARRY GREEN WROTE:

<<Let's extend the metaphor a bit further -- what about the FireStore? I don't hear people complaining that "the Firestore is a ridiculous waste of money, because it only stores three hours -- are you kidding me? Three hours for $800? I could buy 160 hours of tape for that!" With the FireStore, people understand -- you shoot to it, you archive it, you erase it and use it again. The P2 cards are exactly like that -- shoot to it, archive it, erase it and use it again. I don't think people will be buying dozens of FireStores over the years, and I also don't think we'll be buying dozens of P2 cards.>>
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Old April 4th, 2005, 02:56 PM   #2
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Of course that's comparing recording 3 hours of DV quality versus 3 hours of HD footage, but still... It'll make you think.

I sincerely hope that DV Rack and/or Firestore support DVCPRO HD soon to make this camera useable until P2 prices drop and capacity rises...
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:17 PM   #3
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This is the response I posted at DVXUser:

Yes, the cost difference is there. Obviously. But there's also a cost difference between a bicycle and a Mercedes. Drop the firestore once, and see how it affects your cost ratio. Or shoot in the desert, and see what the heat and dust do to the firestore, etc.

You simply do not buy dozens of cards for the P2 camera, that's not how someone uses it. Throwing around numbers like $76,500 would probably qualify as spreading "F.U.D." (what Chris Hurd calls Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

That's just not how you work with the P2 camera.

Those numbers are about as silly as saying that a bicycle can be ridden across the country for free, whereas the Mercedes would cost $30,000,000 to drive across the country, because it can only drive for 300 miles before it's empty, and so then you need a new Mercedes to go the next 300 miles. You don't do that. You buy some cheap gas and you keep going.

I'm not arguing that hard disks aren't cheaper. What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A 40gb external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore?
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:21 PM   #4
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You can get 60GB PCMCIA drives for several hundred dollars :). No word yet if the cam can power these as well but I see no reason it wouldn't. Transfer speeds are in the right place as well. So... assuming that this would work:

DVCproHD 24p: 3.25 hours around $300

Of course P2 is many times better but these should do to start with.
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:22 PM   #5
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I agree with everything you say Barry. However, if P2 prices don't drop drastically, while at the same time the capacity goes up exponentially at NAB, then this camera is unusable for the event videography that I generally do. However, if someone like Firestore or DV Rack decide to support it--or if it can record direct to a normal HD (which, why shouldn't it? It simply writes files to the P2 card...), I can use the camera until P2 is at an affordable point for me. Is the camera an absolutely revolutionary breakthrough either way? You betcha. Worth every penny of $10,000 if it does well what the specs indicate it will. Which is why I desperately want there to be a way for me to use it.
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:28 PM   #6
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<< What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. >>

Thanks Barry. As usual you've hit the nail right on the head.

I think it's more than clear that P2 is best suited for short-take videography such as news gathering and narrative and documentary work. For event work, P2 may not yet best suited for that. Although theoretically all you need are *two* 4GB P2 cards for *any* length of recording, be it three hours or six hours or 60 hours or whatever, as long as you don't mind hot-swapping, downloading and reinserting cards on a relay basis. I'm not saying that's a practical thing to do; I'm just saying that two cards are all you really need in order to have the ability to do limitless recording for as long as you're able to stay awake at the helm.
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Old April 4th, 2005, 03:59 PM   #7
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Hi Barry. This was just for fun as I said.....

Every professional photographer I know had just a few CF cards because of the cost a few years ago, now they have a pocket full. There dirt cheap, no reason not to. Compared to over three years ago when I got my first DSLR when I only had two CF cards. Today I own 7 512mb and 3 1 gigs only because they got cheap.


The reason people are not going to have a lot of P2 cards isn't because they don't need them, it's because it will cost to much to have a lot of them.

Now if P2 4gigs were $100 dollars just for example, people would own 10 to 15 of them easily. I would buy 20 of them at that price. Who wouldn't.

So not having a lot of P2 media is not because there is not a need, it's because they can't, do to the high price of P2 media as of now.

I will tell you when these 4 gigs are dirt cheap, and they will be one day as all memory does, people will have a pocket full of P2 cards.

So one day years from now when Jan tells someone "" why not buy a bunch of P2 cards because there cheap" " I will have to remind her that she professed that no one needs a lot of them because you must re-think your work flow.

I'll make a bet that the Panasonic production philosophy of you don't need a lot of P2 is convenient to back up its high price issue. When P2 cards are dirt cheap, that part of the work flow philosophy will suddenly disappear from the Panasonic mantra, and all of a sudden they will sing the song " P2 cards are cheap so buy many" a 180 from the song going on now.

Which means they really don't believe their own argument, but they just the make themselves believe in it right now to fit the situation. Blue pill or Red anyone.

What's funny is, the short record times can work for me, but I'm a very niche sector and I know it. I don't think others should except it just cause I can at this point.

I know two people that came back from India, 80+ hours in two weeks of filming in Digibeta from Delhi to the tip of Trivandrum. I can site another dozen off the top of my head like this that P2 is not going to work at this current stage if they couldn't have at-least a pocket full. Rethinking your work flow is marketing/PR BS.

I like Jan, I think it's great she comes here, but I have been working production since I was Fifteen, that's been 21 years. So I happen to know a little about this industry. She is product manager. My friends at Panavision never try to tell me my needs or how things should work on a set. But when it comes to their gear I listen 110%. There is a line to respect and I respect that line.

People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#

Everyone I know hate's the limited magazine loads, but it's physics. You can only jam so much film in a mag. Panavision has spent a ton on R&D over the years to build larger mag load canisters, but it's a matter of physics in the end and not because people like have short run times. Reloading sucks.

The one thing everyone loves in Hollywood about HD is the large record times even if they hate HD imagery, it's always "" I like the long record times and quick and easy change out ".

Panasonic/Jan uses a film mag issue that people have no choice but to live with in film industry to justify another bad issue of limited P2 Media size. This is and never would be a plus....


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS




[QUOTE=Barry_GreenWhat I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A $40 external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore?[/QUOTE]




<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : This is the response I posted at DVXUser:

Yes, the cost difference is there. Obviously. But there's also a cost difference between a bicycle and a Mercedes. Drop the firestore once, and see how it affects your cost ratio. Or shoot in the desert, and see what the heat and dust do to the firestore, etc.

You simply do not buy dozens of cards for the P2 camera, that's not how someone uses it. Throwing around numbers like $76,500 would probably qualify as spreading "F.U.D." (what Chris Hurd calls Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

That's just not how you work with the P2 camera.

Those numbers are about as silly as saying that a bicycle can be ridden across the country for free, whereas the Mercedes would cost $30,000,000 to drive across the country, because it can only drive for 300 miles before it's empty, and so then you need a new Mercedes to go the next 300 miles. You don't do that. You buy some cheap gas and you keep going.

I'm not arguing that hard disks aren't cheaper. What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A 40gb external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore? -->>>
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Old April 4th, 2005, 05:21 PM   #8
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Nice post Michael. I don't think that the mantra of "that's what the film folk are used to" should be interpreted as

"The filmies are used to short running times, and so should you" I think it means, "Well yeah it sucks, but people can manage with it, so it's not all doom and gloom"

If all the hype bears fruit, then considering what you're getting with this camera, the tradeoff may be worth it. Then again it might not...Is HDV good enough for people, and if so, the media is a lot cheaper and the Panasonic will suffer.


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Old April 5th, 2005, 12:39 AM   #9
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<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :
People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#
-->>>

Also Michael.......for those people who spend big $$ on film shoots with 4-minute film loads......How many do they have in the film truck?? A lot more then 2 or 3 I would imagine.

I think the new Pany camera is cool....but the P2 thing is an argument that can't be won today. Not until they become abundant, but when they do....that camera is gonna be #1 for sure!

However, here's a narrative film/movie shooting scenario I am afraid of.....Say for instance you find someone with 4-gig P2 cards on sale at 75% off....that's $500 bucks....THAT'S STILL FREAKIN' EXPENSIVE for only 4 minutes of footage. And what if after shooting 4 looOOOOooong minutes (lol) of footage (roughly 2-3 takes of just one scene of your 100+ page 150 scene movie script) what do you do???
1. give the crew a 5-10 break while you download to your laptop each time:
-----a. laptop = money$
-----b. time = money$
2. buy 2 or 3 P2 cards to rotate for continuous shooting:
-----a. laptop = money$
-----b. extra (intelligent and computer savvy) crew member to handle the job = money$
-----c. extra P2 cards = money$
-----d. time = money$ (you can forget about "HOLD THE ROLL" and fast shooting
3. buy 3 hours of P2 Cards
-----a. LOL

and......what if.....the laptop hard drive crashes?????
think about it guys, that's not far fetched. you will be placing your entire project, setups, cast who has to leave and can never return to re-shoot on a single western digital, maxtor, or seagate hard drive....and praying it will not crash on you and that it will work 100% for your ENTIRE DAY of shooting. If you think you have time to capture P2 card footage "AND" perform a backup in the field....LOL

man

*shaking my head* This Panasonic camera looks like it will be the SHIZNIT!!! but it's that P2 thing that has me concerned....that's all. Nothing else. All other bases are covered.

If Panasonc just up and said "Make all 4-gig P2 Cards $100 bucks and our new 8-gig P2 cards only $150 bucks"........ Can you just imagine what that would do to the HD world??? I hope they do it, cause the camera is BAD ASS!

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Old April 5th, 2005, 05:51 AM   #10
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>Michael Pappas :
So one day years from now when Jan tells someone "" why not buy a bunch of P2 cards because there cheap" " I will have to remind her that she professed that no one needs a lot of them because you must re-think your work flow.

Michael, If you were working with the AJ-SPX800, I would say fill the camera with cards and add a few more. You don't need a lot of them, you need how many it will take to get the job done some will need more, some will need less. Figure out your workflow and budget acccordingly.


>I'll make a bet that the Panasonic production philosophy of you don't need a lot of P2 is convenient to back up its high price issue. When P2 cards are dirt cheap, that part of the work flow philosophy will suddenly disappear from the Panasonic mantra, and all of a sudden they will sing the song " P2 cards are cheap so buy many" a 180 from the song going on now.

I wish they were not so expensive, but I don't think it would change the essence of the workflow. I think having just a couple more than what the camera holds is all one would need.

>I know two people that came back from India, 80+ hours in two weeks of filming in Digibeta from Delhi to the tip of Trivandrum. I can site another dozen off the top of my head like this that P2 is not going to work at this current stage if they couldn't have at-least a pocket full.

Actually I can see how this one would work, the long event continuous record is a little more of a challange with cards. The trip to Delhi would be a lot lighter trip without tape. And move to the hard drives for back up. And since it is DVCPRO50 quaility, then on the 4GB card I have 8 minutes, and on the 8GB card which will be available when the HVX200 comes out will give me 16 minutes per card. Offload, back up and continue to shoot. And then when I get back to the states, I don't have to digitize, I can start making decisions. Actually they might have even started that back in Delhi.

>I like Jan, I think it's great she comes here, but I have been working production since I was Fifteen, that's been 21 years. So I happen to know a little about this industry. She is product manager.

So what does that mean? I have been a working professional in this business since 1974. And a student before that. I have a degree in Media Systems Design and Utilization, and a Media Production degree. I have been on the management side, the production side, the sales side, the technical, how does it work side, I too know a little about this industry. I have threaded up 2" Quad Machines and 1/2" reel to reel VTRs non-EIAJ. I am a Product Line Business Manager because I understand this business and the marketplace. I have worked with film cameras, and tube cameras and chip cameras. I have sold NLEs, cameras and VTRs. I have worked with some of the best and brightest in this industry. I do not come to my position without experience and knowledge.

>My friends at Panavision never try to tell me my needs or how things should work on a set. But when it comes to their gear I listen 110%. There is a line to respect and I respect that line.

I am not telling you your needs or how things should work on a set, I am making a suggestion as to how they could work with my gear. You then have the choice of saying, "yeah, that works for me" or saying, "no, that doesn't" and go buy something else. You asked how do I work with this, I offer a suggestion and then you diss me for the suggestion saying that I am telling you how to work? What is that?

>People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#

It is a parallel that is easy enough to understand. And it is only today that there is a 4 gig card, by August there will be an 8 gig card, by NAB next year, there will be in the offing a 16 gig card and so on and so on.

>Everyone I know hates the limited magazine loads, but it's physics. You can only jam so much film in a mag. Panavision has spent a ton on R&D over the years to build larger mag load canisters, but it's a matter of physics in the end and not because people like have short run times. Reloading sucks.

And the point is that with the P2 the load increases. Unlike film, where the laws of physics cannot change, Moore's law is about change.

> The one thing everyone loves in Hollywood about HD is the large record times even if they hate HD imagery, it's always "" I like the long record times and quick and easy change out ".

The longest load in the DVCPRO HD camera is now 30 minutes.
If it were me and I wanted to work with this new camera, I probably would have 1 or 2 more cards than what the camera can hold. Just like I do with my digital still cameras. I have figured out my work flow with the still camera and I know how many pictures I generally shoot on a given outing. The point is that it is about changing the way you think about it.

Oh and Focus Enhancements is a P2 Partner.

Best regards,

Jan
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Old April 5th, 2005, 05:59 AM   #11
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Michael, don't worry mate. I'm sure there will be a tape drive in there too so you can record good old DVCPRO (And 50?), then just worry about P2 if you want to shoot HD. Or get a Firestore. Basically anything to avoid HDV ;) OK, the new JVC does sound nice, with it's true progressive....


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Old April 5th, 2005, 07:24 AM   #12
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<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : ... on the 8GB card which will be available when the HVX200 comes ...

... by August there will be an 8 gig card-->>>

Does this mean the HVX will also be available in August?
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Old April 5th, 2005, 08:28 AM   #13
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There is also one big difference from the "change film mag" metaphor: you don't have to stop filming while changing cards.

August seems resonable....
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Old April 5th, 2005, 11:14 AM   #14
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Kevin, I think Jan spilt the beans inadvertently :) Let's hope!
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Old April 5th, 2005, 01:50 PM   #15
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Maybe :). Just because an 8gig card comes out in August doesn't say a thing about the cameras release date. There are other P2 cameras in use at the moment which would use the 8gig card.
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