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Old April 24th, 2005, 06:11 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
If licensing is fairly reasonable/inexpensive or if certain preliminary information is available without much cost or requirement for too many NDAs, I my dig into it a bit. I have had components manufactured before and if I see a potential to license P2 and contract a chipmaker to manufacture where there isn't a whole lot of early competition, it may be something to seriously consider.
Jeff, You should contact me off line. I can put you in touch with our Partners manager. He is in our Secaucus Headquarters.

Best,

Jan
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Old April 24th, 2005, 11:16 AM   #32
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Just a little note about "professional vs prosumer vs consumer"

All of the equipment we use are just tools, in my opinion, nothing more. Discussions on prices, technical merits, features, and specifications of various tools are of great value to the people using these tools. The idea of easily catagorizing equipment by price point, or even the material its made out of is no longer so easy. When a professional picks up a "consumer "or "prosumer" piece of equipment, because he has done his homework, and it is the right tool for the job, it becomes professional equipment. When an amature picks up a Varicam, it becomes a really expensive toy. The line between professional or not belongs to the expertise of knowing what to use, how to use it,and where to use it. Very few people ever see or know or care about the equipment we use, and how it looks, works, or costs. They only have the result, and that is where its at, and regardless of the format, its all analog in the eyeball.

When I came to video from film, even the top end video equipment seemed to me like flimsy, cheap, ergonomicly unsound, overly complicated junk.Then 24p started kicking my butt in the market. I kept waiting for things to get back to normal. I didn't realize that there was a new normal.
I was arrogant about equipment because I was a "professional".
I got over it, and then I got over it some more. Then I started learning. Then I learned some more. At this point, I personally dismiss nothing out of hand, because if i prejudice against something, I might miss something useful for my tool box. That my tool box contains so many choices, well, that to me, is the miracle of the time we live in. It is also my most lethal weapon.

Dismiss equipment out of hand, because you have invested something else, and someone like me will cash the check from the next job because my reel is just as good, the end product is just as good, and I can charge less and make more. The playing field is slowly leveling out. Its less the brush now as it is the artist.

And so now, finally, I am doing well again.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 11:25 AM   #33
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Agreed. I am making money with a good old prosumer XL1 manufactured in 1998. This is the right tool for me for the moment. (IE nobody ask for 16:9 or HD here yet).

Get the tool you need.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 05:02 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston
It is such a serious upgrade to HDV, it isn't even funny. There is nothing that HDV does that this camera doesn't do better.
i agree 100%, but will the hdv marketplace be educated enough to understand how horrible long-gop mpeg2 is?

i spent about $500k during my career as a pc network admin, and i found that convincing people to spend even 15% more for better technology can be difficult... panasonic may need to really school people at this price point about why they need to buy a p2 card, that hdv doesn't require.

thanks for confirming the future developments of this great camera!

and put my vote with the michael pappas post, about ditching the dv drive completely, spend that money on a big p2 card instead, or a cheap hard drive solution that records in real time... or in tandem with the p2 cards, as a backup system, anti-shock mount it right into the body of the camera where the tape drive was.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 07:56 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston
Prosumer is a contractionof a consumer camera that is turned into a professional caera with the adddition of a couple of features. ..... These cameras were designed by the Professional Broadcast Group with features designed for the professional customer, people that get paid for making images for a living, be that news, docos, reality shows, wedding videos or indie films.

Just yesterday I came from a 2 day shoot where the producer rented 2 DVX100 camcorders. There was a lot of low-light stuff, theater, hallways at night, very much an on-the-run kind of a documentary. I was only reminded how bad the lens on this camcorder is and how difficult it is to get a good focus in low light with it.

Hence, for me, the dividing line between pro gear and non-pro (whatever we decide to call it), if everything else is equal or close to equal, is the ability to use real lenses with their operability and flexibility AND the way the camera is built, i.e. where the controls are, how the viewfinder in placed, what kinds of ports there are, etc.

I am not saying that a good or even great product cannot be made with prosumer or even very basic consumer cameras (Born to Brothels, Open Water, etc.) but from an operator's point of view there is no question about where the HDX200 fits. When you take an old Betacam, say BVW400, or heck, take an old Hitachi with a U-matic deck; the lines or resolution are simply not there when compared to HD or HDV, however, the camera is still a professional piece of equipment because of the way it is built and the the fact that it has a real lens or provision for. A 5 Megapixel parallax little still camera with a built-in lens, full manual control ability and recording to the same media is not professional next to a 2.6 Megapixel Nikon D1. It could be, however, used by professionals with great results. Will they pick it as their main tool if given the choice? I doubt it. Just ask any professional photograper...

What we are experiencing here are tremendous advances in technology and their implication on all levels of equipment, from high-end pro gear to entry level consumer. And yes, absolutely, take ANY DV consumer one chip camcorder today and compare it to the old U-matic. If the camera operator knows what he/she is doing they will almost certainly get better quality images than those of the 3/4" we used 10-15 years ago. Does it make the camcorder professional? Of course not. Before 9/11 we used to discuss the so called "broadcast quality" and a friend of mine used as an example the possibility of a plane hitting the CN Tower in Toronto making any and all low-rez shaky randomly shot VHS quality video of the incident "broadcast quality" on an instant. It still has nothing to do with the distinction between professional equipment and consumer gear put on stereoids.

Disclaimer:
I know that I will be attacked for this, so I want to make it very clear that these are my personal opinions based on my preferences and experience. I have owned and/or used camcorders ranging from Hi8 to CineAlta.
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Old April 24th, 2005, 09:34 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
I know that I will be attacked for this, so I want to make it very clear that these are my personal opinions based on my preferences and experience. I have owned and/or used camcorders ranging from Hi8 to CineAlta.
Hehe, join the club. ...Oh, wait a minute. You said the DVX100 has a bad lens that's difficult to focus in low light. Them's fightin' words, you sonofa... Er.. Actually I agree. But for what the DVX100 does for the price I paid, I'm still very pleased with it. Still, we had better duck for cover and be glad that comment wasn't posted in the DVX100 section of these forums. I'm sure others have been killed over less. ;-)
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Old April 24th, 2005, 09:44 PM   #37
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Our long-time members understand that we do not allow flaming on this board. When we find it, we remove it. I'm hoping you newer guys will key in on this concept as well. Let's please resume the technical aspects of these discussions -- thanks in advance,
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Old April 24th, 2005, 09:46 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
I know that I will be attacked for this...
Not here you won't. We don't allow personal attacks on this board.

If you do experience a personal attack from another member, please bring it to my attention or the attention of one of the moderators immediately. Thanks in advance,
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Old April 24th, 2005, 11:44 PM   #39
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Thank you Chris, that's good to hear and it is a breath of fresh air. I have been on other discussion boards where knives were out and blood was pouring.....:-)

Well then, as you said, it's back to the technical aspects of these discussions.
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Old April 25th, 2005, 02:56 AM   #40
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This is a weird thread...

...but I will say it's made me think about the whole prosumer/professional thing. I'm a shooter/editor, but have made most of my money editing. I've edited both AVID and FCP for years, but guess which one I say first when speaking to someone in the industry? You bet. AVID...even though I prefer FCP as MY professional tool. It is interesting that the limted access to professional tools in the past has delineated the pros from the non's. Now that the country club is open to all members, it sure is hard to tell the rich from the poor... This is quite troubling to the old school folks and can be quite confusing to clients new to the game.

KW
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Old April 25th, 2005, 09:26 AM   #41
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"I'm a shooter/editor, but have made most of my money editing. I've edited both AVID and FCP for years, but guess which one I say first when speaking to someone in the industry?

Kevin, I know exactly what you mean.
I'm in the same exact boat, shooting/editing but making most of my money on post. And when people ask me, I generally mention AVID before anything else.

It is interesting that the limted access to professional tools in the past has delineated the pros from the non's. Now that the country club is open to all members, it sure is hard to tell the rich from the poor... This is quite troubling to the old school folks and can be quite confusing to clients new to the game."

Exactly.
I mean, if everything is professional, then nothing is professional.

Of course, in these discussions it's important to remember, in the end it's the work ethic, creative vision, and craftsmanship that makes someone a professional. The tools are secondary.
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Old April 25th, 2005, 12:06 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Bakala
Just yesterday I came from a 2 day shoot where the producer rented 2 DVX100 camcorders. There was a lot of low-light stuff, theater, hallways at night, very much an on-the-run kind of a documentary. I was only reminded how bad the lens on this camcorder is and how difficult it is to get a good focus in low light with it.

Hence, for me, the dividing line between pro gear and non-pro (whatever we decide to call it), if everything else is equal or close to equal, is the ability to use real lenses with their operability and flexibility AND the way the camera is built, i.e. where the controls are, how the viewfinder in placed, what kinds of ports there are, etc.

I am not saying that a good or even great product cannot be made with prosumer or even very basic consumer cameras (Born to Brothels, Open Water, etc.) but from an operator's point of view there is no question about where the HDX200 fits. When you take an old Betacam, say BVW400, or heck, take an old Hitachi with a U-matic deck; the lines or resolution are simply not there when compared to HD or HDV, however, the camera is still a professional piece of equipment because of the way it is built and the the fact that it has a real lens or provision for. A 5 Megapixel parallax little still camera with a built-in lens, full manual control ability and recording to the same media is not professional next to a 2.6 Megapixel Nikon D1. It could be, however, used by professionals with great results. Will they pick it as their main tool if given the choice? I doubt it. Just ask any professional photograper...

What we are experiencing here are tremendous advances in technology and their implication on all levels of equipment, from high-end pro gear to entry level consumer. And yes, absolutely, take ANY DV consumer one chip camcorder today and compare it to the old U-matic. If the camera operator knows what he/she is doing they will almost certainly get better quality images than those of the 3/4" we used 10-15 years ago. Does it make the camcorder professional? Of course not. Before 9/11 we used to discuss the so called "broadcast quality" and a friend of mine used as an example the possibility of a plane hitting the CN Tower in Toronto making any and all low-rez shaky randomly shot VHS quality video of the incident "broadcast quality" on an instant. It still has nothing to do with the distinction between professional equipment and consumer gear put on stereoids.

Disclaimer:
I know that I will be attacked for this, so I want to make it very clear that these are my personal opinions based on my preferences and experience. I have owned and/or used camcorders ranging from Hi8 to CineAlta.
Well, nobody is going to argue with you over what your opinions on what separates professional from consumer gear. Your disclaimer prevents it ;)

The original discussion was about pricing of the two groups. There are specific factors that will determine hikes in price and the division of the two kinds of equipment. E.g., the DVX100 was made by Panny's professional division, as was the HVX200. You can expect the prices of their accessories (specifically P2 media, which started this whole thing), to be higher than the price of 8 (combined) GB of SD flash memory, which would be consumer products. The same is true of all products aimed at professionals. When you think about the cost of a Digibeta deck, it's almost ridiculous until you consider the intended market. The same will be true of these new breed of cams. They may be low end professional, but they are professional nonetheless.

Now, when it comes to your personal criteria of what makes equipment professional or not (I know I said I'd leave it alone but I just thought of this), you also have to consier that people just coming into the pro world, i.e. early-twenty-somethings, like myself, who have not handled
U-matic gear, will see cams like the HD100 and HVX100 as pro gear. Who's to say that we won't be judging cams 15 years from now by the standards they set (feel, button placement, feature sets, etc...)?

Disclaimer ;) - I really hope you don't feel like a repsonse such as this is an "attack" on you. I'm merely want represent my side of the discussion. As Chris has said, nothing is intended to be taken personally here.
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Old April 25th, 2005, 12:33 PM   #43
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Jesse, very fair and you have a point. BTW, my first camera was 'prosumer' :-) Sony VX3 (Hi8)... at the time, a killer beast :-)
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Old April 25th, 2005, 01:28 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Green
As far as I know, people saying an 8gb card for $1700 are unsubstantiated.
Sorry. I was quoting Robin Liss at CamcorderInfo: "At Panasonic's press conference today, they announced a major price drop in P2 cards down to $1,700 for a 8 GB card. . . . Previously, a 4 GB P2 card, capable of recording 4 minutes of HD video cost about $1,700." After rereading that paragraph, I think something may have gotten garbled when the article was written.
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