Question for Jan Crittenden Livingston about 1080p at DVinfo.net

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Old June 6th, 2005, 05:31 PM   #1
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Question for Jan Crittenden Livingston about 1080p

Per DVX User hands on report, uncompressed analog output is only 1080i60 and 720p60. That indicates that no 1080p CCD mode exists and 1080p will be derived from 720p or 1080i. Can you elaborate, please.

At NAB and before in Europe there were some statements by Panasonic people that they'll have 1080p cameras in 2007, 2008, I think.

They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.

Can give us your take on these, please.

Radek
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Old June 7th, 2005, 01:40 AM   #2
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Answered here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...028#post321028
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Old June 7th, 2005, 07:17 AM   #3
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I find it interesting that Radek keeps asking the same questions (as that was his post that you linked to Barry).

Radek, there may be a few people here who just spout information without any factual basis (though mercifully few, that's why this place rocks), but if Barry Green is the one giving you information, you can pretty much bank on it. And I get this feeling that if he were to be incorrect, he'd make sure that you not only knew it, but that you had the right information as well, as his concern seems to be that those that visit DVinfo, DVXuser, etc are informed and educatated, not duped and brainwashed.

Now, if we can avoid any comments about various acts of sycophantry, I'd like to say Barry's not alone. There is a huge amount of very talented and very knowledgable working professionals here that decide to share their gifts with us. Again, that's why this place rocks!

Thanks Chris for bringing so much knowledge and talent together in one place!
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Old June 7th, 2005, 07:54 AM   #4
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Brilliantly stated, Kevin, and much appreciated. Many thanks,
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Old June 7th, 2005, 09:04 AM   #5
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It's like Barry said in the other thread. 1080p on the new camera works just like 480p does on the DVX-100. The CCD'S are progressive but the stream is put into a 1080i or 480i stream with pulldown to go to tape or analog output. The DVX-100 cannot output real progressive frames so neither can the HVX-200. For both cameras you will have to take that interlaced stream and remove the pulldown to get your progressive frames. Or you could shoot 30p and even though the video will be in an interlaced stream it will not have any fields but true progressive frames so it will be the same as a progressive stream.
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Old June 7th, 2005, 03:34 PM   #6
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I read Barry's article. Lot of useful information. Thanks. I would like hear from Panasonic why uncompressed 1080p mode is missing, while uncompressed 1080i and 720p available. Unless Panasonic can provide confirmation that chipset itself, and with it ADC has this mode but Panasonic decided not to make available in uncompressed form, I must asume that 1080p is created from 1080i or 720p.

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Old June 7th, 2005, 04:58 PM   #7
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Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

As far as I'm concerned, I thought Barry pretty much explained that it worked like the SD cameras that have 24p and other progressive frame rates... they're still carried in an interlaced signal on the uncompressed analog outputs, so why shouldn't this camera be any different?
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Old June 7th, 2005, 06:17 PM   #8
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I don't think 1080p mode is missing. It is just inside of a 30i uncompressed output. I do not think it has anything to do with the type and quality of the analog outputs but more to do with how the HVX-200 creates 1080p video. Since 1080 mode seems to do exactly what the DVX-100 does there isn't really ever a 1080p video stream when output. All progressive frames are placed within a 30i stream. This is a restriction of the format on the camera and not so much the output.

The DVX-100 also does not have a true 24p analog or digital output but nobody says that the camera isn't a real progressive camera. The DVX-100 is a 24p camera but that 24p stream is in a 30i stream and pulldown must be removed to get your real 24p frames. The 1080 mode on the HVX-200 works exactly the same. At this point I do not know how the HVX-200 is going to get 1080 video but the output stream has in no way anything to do with the way 1080 is created. The CCDs could either be 960x720 with pixel shift to get 1280x1080 or they could naturally be 1920x1080 (or anything else between) but either way the 24p with 3:2 pulldown inside 30i output would still be the same. It is just an easy way to output video.

720p kind of works the same way. Any framerate you choose will still be ouput in a 60p stream with the extra frames padded. There is no 720i so there was no point in making the camera output a 720i stream. Most equipment you will watch or edit on however only looks at 720p as 60p so the extra frames need to be padded. 1080i is also kind of a padding but it uses fields instead of whole frames to pad.
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Old June 8th, 2005, 04:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek Svoboda
Per DVX User hands on report, uncompressed analog output is only 1080i60 and 720p60. That indicates that no 1080p CCD mode exists and 1080p will be derived from 720p or 1080i. Can you elaborate, please.

They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.

Can give us your take on these, please.

Radek
The 1080P is enbedded in the 1080i output, just like the 24P on the DVX100 is embedded in a 60i stream.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek Svoboda
At NAB and before in Europe there were some statements by Panasonic people that they'll have 1080p cameras in 2007, 2008, I think.
I don't remember this. I remember they mentioned a VariCam, don't remember if that was 2006 or 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek Svoboda
They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.
Can give us your take on these, please.
Well that is possible, but there was nothing specific. P2 is format agnostic so you can do what you want.

Hope that helped.

Best,

Jan
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Old June 8th, 2005, 08:20 AM   #10
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Jan another one. Any timeline on new info on the HVX200. Any new pictures, video? Panasonic got everyone all worked up and then stopped!!
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Old June 9th, 2005, 12:39 AM   #11
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Bob, I would imagine that they'll have more info and goodies for us at the Next Big Show, which is DV Expo East in July in NYC.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 01:10 AM   #12
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To go back to Radek's post, and hopefully put this whole issue to bed -- the JVC HD100 also cannot output 720/24p or 720/30p. The only type of output you get from that camera is 720/60p. So 720/30p and 720/24p are carried within a 60p data stream. 720/30p is output by doubling the frames, which results in a 60p signal. 720/30p is output by using a 2:3 frame cadence, where each odd frame is output twice, and each even frame is output three times, so every two frames are output as five frames, the result being 24 frames become 60. Yes, it's a 60p signal, but it still retains the look and feel of 24, and could easily be reconstituted as 24.

As others have adequately explained, the HVX will do the same, outputting 24 pure, raw progressive frames within a 60i data stream. That 60i data stream can easily be reconstituted to the original 24p frames in post, using the exact same methodologies we've been using with the DVX and XL2.
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Old June 9th, 2005, 09:14 AM   #13
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Thanks Chris
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Old June 9th, 2005, 02:44 PM   #14
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Sorry guys, but we talking apples and oranges. As far I know, right after CCD you have ADC. The reason is keep noise down. After ADC you tap the uncompressed analog. Fitting of progressive to interlaced tracks happens much later.

Altasens has chipset that is capable of outputting 720p and 1080i, but not 1080p. I don't say this is the Panasonic's case.

You claim I assume thing. On the contrary. The lack of 1080p uncompressed output and your claim that it not matter is you guys assuming things.

I'm not going rub this further. All I'm saying is there is lack of 1080p uncompressed and that Panasonic has not confirmed that chipset does have 1080p mode, that this mode is available in its uncompressed mode for camera processor.

The lack of this output and lack confirmation by panasonic that this mode exists, but Panasonic decided not to make available to user, does not make me change my mind as I see things.

Sorry but Panasonic must explain lack of 1080p uncompressed. Saying it gets layed down to intelaced stream is fine, but it happes later on in process, but how does camera create 1080p if no uncompressed 1080p exists?

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Old June 9th, 2005, 05:08 PM   #15
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You are assuming by going all over this forum and talking about this as if it is a fact. You are spreading rumors that nobody knows to be true at this point. All we are doing is thinking about what we know and telling you to slow down before going and saying "hey guess what there is no 1080p" You do not know that for a fact so you shouldn't make it seem like you know this for sure. You have even responded to other posts as if your claims are 100% accurate. If you would listen we are trying to tell you that any output in 1080 will have to be 1080i. That just makes it easier. Now with the way Panasonic does things if you shoot 24p you can output an uncompressed 1080i stream and once inside your system remove the pulldown to get 24p.

The thing is who really cares if the camera doesn't output 24p 1080p uncompressed? Yes there is an extra step with having to remove the 3:2 pulldown but in the end you still get a true 24p just like with the DVX-100.

The problem is you keep popping up all over the place trying to make a camera that isn't even out yet seem defective for not including something less than 1% of the users will use it for. Remember this camera was kick but even before we knew it was going to have 1080. 1080 is a huge bonus and add to that this is the only camera even close to this price range right now to give a true 1080 24p (after you remove pulldown)

Instead of saying hey guys here is some info to look at you made it seem like a huge news flash.

The funny thing about all of this is that you would rather believe a rumor than the knowledge of dozens of people trying to put together the facts.
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