HPX371 Noise Issue?

Jeff Regan · July 18th, 2010, 11:57 PM

David,

I agree with most of your assertions, broadly speaking. AVC-Intra 100 offers more than 10-bit depth vs. 8-bit depth with DVCPRO HD, as I posted, ie; no 3/4 subsampling, more efficient compression. lower noise floor.

My point is that 10-bit is considered high-end, yet Panasonic has made it attainable at a price point that nobody else can touch(save RED One with 12-bit). An HPX2700 body is $19,950 with trade-in, B-stock HPX2000's can be had for $15-16K USD. Add a lens and viewfinder to a 2700, and you're at 3X the cost of a 370, but still $70K lower than Sony's only 10-bit format, HDCAM SR.

I agree that visually, looking at camera original footage, 10-bit is hard to discern over 8-bit(especially with an 8-bit display device), but so it 4:4:4 color space vs. 4:2:2. The computers know the difference, and we both agree 10-bit(as well as 4:4:4) can pay dividends in post.

Because Panasonic keeps messing up their CMOS models doesn't mean that AVC-Intra 100 isn't the best codec available for the money now for 2/3" CCD cameras and hopefully at some point for CMOS cameras as well. Meanwhile, Sony handicaps their under $20K cameras with a 35Mbps, 8-bit, Long GOP, 4:2:0 codec and their under $100K cameras with 8-bit, 50Mbps codecs.

Anybody can buy a $20K Pansonic camera body that is 10-bit, but they can't do that with Sony. I don't want to make it seem like 10-bit is THE reason to buy a camera, but it's not a trifle either.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video

Peter Moretti · July 19th, 2010, 06:43 AM

Jeff,

Actually I'm pretty sure that the EX1 does ten significant bits out of the HD-SDI. It's recording it that's the problem.

Also, it seems that transcoding 8-bit to 10-bit in post will give you more latitude than if you stayed in 10-bit.

But I do of course agree, take ten bits if you can get it.

Jeff Regan · July 19th, 2010, 08:33 AM

Peter,

You're correct, the EX cameras have 10-bit HD SDI uncompressed outputs.

I don't agree that transcoding from 8-bit to 10-bit vs. acquiring and staying in 10-bit will offer more latitude,
although editing on a 10-bit time line with something like Pro Res can be beneficial vs. staying in 8-bit.

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video

Peter Moretti · July 20th, 2010, 09:35 PM

Jeff, sorry about the typo :(. I meant "... than if you stayed in 8-bit."

P.S. For some reason I can't edit the post.

Jeff Regan · July 29th, 2010, 02:47 PM

Adam Wilt just published his review of the HPX370 and addresses the noise on movement issue:

ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt | Founder | Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews

Jeff Regan
Shooting Star Video

Steve Phillipps · July 29th, 2010, 03:05 PM

Thanks Jeff, interesting read.
One thing he comments on is using the Synchro Scan buttons to change frame rates and it didn't work properly but started to work once he'd fiddled about with it. From what I saw it only works when the shutter switch is in the Off position, so he probably switched it off and then it worked.
Steve

Niels Neeskens · August 5th, 2010, 05:01 AM

------------------------------------------------------------
P2 Asset Support System (PASS) Newsletter
This is distributed to PASS members
August 5, 2010 / Issue 32
------------------------------------------------------------
News for P2 products
I. [Update] AG-HPX370, AG-HPX300 series
II. New CAC files for AJ-HPX3700 series etc.
------------------------------------------------------------
I. Updated: AG-HPX370 ,AG-HPX300 series
------------------------------------------------------------
AG-HPX370 series
1. Two types of P.A.P.Filters
You can choose two kinds of P.A.P. filters to improve image quality.
2. Applicable Lens models for CAC function were added.
These CAC files require updating the firmware of AG-HPX370 series.

Latest version software of AG-HPX370 seires
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...pghpx370_e.htm

AG-HPX300 series
Applicable Lens models for CAC function were added.
These CAC files require updating the firmware of AG-HPX300 series.

Latest version software of AG-HPX300 seires
https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...pghpx300_e.htm

*"P2 Status logger" is available.
Log-in -> "Download P2 Status logger"
P2 Asset Support System | Broadcast and Professional AV Systems

------------------------------------------------------------
II.New CAC files
------------------------------------------------------------
Chromatic Aberration Compensation (CAC) is to minimize
neighboring blur, it automatically compensates the
blur that is caused mainly by lens chromatic aberration.

The CAC function is automatically activated when a lens in the CAC database is connected.
The CAC database can be updated by importing CAC files, which are
available in PASS.

The following CAC files for AJ-HPX3700, AJ-HPX2700,AJ-HPX3000 series are newly available
For Fujinon HA22X7.3BERM-M58
For Canon KJ22ex7.6B IASE / IRSE

The following CAC files for AG-HPX370 , AG-HPX300 series are newly available
For Canon KT17ex4.3B IRSD PS12

Learn more details and download CAC files:
PASS portal P2 Asset Support System | Broadcast and Professional AV Systems
Log-in > "Library" > "Utility software" > CAC Files (for P2 Camerarecoder)

So is this what we were waiting for, or is it a HPX300 emulator like somebody mentioned on another board???

Steve Phillipps · August 5th, 2010, 07:15 AM

Yes, Niels, that's how it appears.
As you know the problems with the HPX300 were mainly high noise and low sensitivity. "Solved" by the miraculous HPX370. But it turns out at the expense of these issues we've been talking about.
"Solution", turn off the processing which "solved" the HPX300's noise issues, which leaves you, as you say, with an HPX300.
Huh?
So you can a) A 300 with noise, b) a 370 with little noise but weird ghosting problems, or c) something from Sony with low noise and no ghosting!
Steve

Steve Phillipps · August 5th, 2010, 07:16 AM

Though I suppose option c still comes with poor form factor, although Visual Impact in the UK has now taken delivery of the PMW320, so that's that out of the way too.
Steve

Niels Neeskens · August 5th, 2010, 08:00 AM

Well ridiculous right? Maybe we can have some sort of explanation from somebody from Panasonic???

Steve Phillipps · August 5th, 2010, 08:23 AM

With you 100% Niels.
Tell you what though, apart from this issue I actually thought the camera was really, really good. Excellent viewfinder, nice ergonomics, well-built, nice lens, I was very, very impressed.
Steve

Niels Neeskens · August 5th, 2010, 08:31 AM

Still love the camera! Let's see if this update is for real and takes away the noise issue without turning it into a HPX300, then I would fully love this camera again.

Andy Shipsides · August 5th, 2010, 06:03 PM

I learned a little bit more about the noise reduction technology used in the HPX370/371.

Panasonic is utilizing what they call 2D & 3D noise reduction techniques. In 2D noise reduction, noise is removed in and individual frame, with no relationship to other captured frames. 3D noise reduction uses information from multiple frames to reduce noise, and will generally produce the cleanest image. Panasonic uses a mix of the two because 3D noise reduction alone can cause smearing if there is a great deal of movement in the frame. So they utilize 3D noise reduction when the image is relatively static, and switch to 2D when things get moving. This is a very smart way to reduce noise, but I think it is what many of you are seeing in the image.

Andy

Dan Brockett · August 5th, 2010, 06:27 PM

It sure would be nice if somebody experiencing this issue would post a high quality, short video sequence on Vimeo at 1080 so we could all look at it and judge as to whether this artifact is a significant limitation or merely much ado about nothing.

If it is only visible in stills. who cares? If it is noticeable in motion as a significant artifact, then that is definitely not a good thing and hopefully Panasonic's solution will make everyone satisfied.

Dan

Steve Phillipps · August 5th, 2010, 07:19 PM

Dan, from what I've seen is it very noticeable in moving images. That's how I noticed it, I wasn't making stills and peeping, I just watched some test shots I did and there was a funny shifting and trailing in the shots, most notably huge blocks of noise in out of focus backgrounds as soon as I panned. It was very obvious, and obviously something wrong. It's just easier to show and describe in a still so that you guys can see exactly what we're talking about.
Steve

July 19th, 2010, 06:43 AM	#32
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Jeff, Actually I'm pretty sure that the EX1 does ten significant bits out of the HD-SDI. It's recording it that's the problem. Also, it seems that transcoding 8-bit to 10-bit in post will give you more latitude than if you stayed in 10-bit. But I do of course agree, take ten bits if you can get it. __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0

July 20th, 2010, 09:35 PM	#34
Peter Moretti Trustee Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sherman Oaks, CA Posts: 1,259	Jeff, sorry about the typo :(. I meant "... than if you stayed in 8-bit." P.S. For some reason I can't edit the post. __________________ Avid Media Composer 3.1.3. Boris Red and Continuum Complete. Vegas 8.0c. TMPGEnc Xpress Pro 4.0

August 5th, 2010, 05:01 AM	#37
Niels Neeskens Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Almelo Posts: 177	------------------------------------------------------------ P2 Asset Support System (PASS) Newsletter This is distributed to PASS members August 5, 2010 / Issue 32 ------------------------------------------------------------ News for P2 products I. [Update] AG-HPX370, AG-HPX300 series II. New CAC files for AJ-HPX3700 series etc. ------------------------------------------------------------ I. Updated: AG-HPX370 ,AG-HPX300 series ------------------------------------------------------------ AG-HPX370 series 1. Two types of P.A.P.Filters You can choose two kinds of P.A.P. filters to improve image quality. 2. Applicable Lens models for CAC function were added. These CAC files require updating the firmware of AG-HPX370 series. Latest version software of AG-HPX370 seires https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...pghpx370_e.htm AG-HPX300 series Applicable Lens models for CAC function were added. These CAC files require updating the firmware of AG-HPX300 series. Latest version software of AG-HPX300 seires https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro...pghpx300_e.htm *"P2 Status logger" is available. Log-in -> "Download P2 Status logger" P2 Asset Support System \| Broadcast and Professional AV Systems ------------------------------------------------------------ II.New CAC files ------------------------------------------------------------ Chromatic Aberration Compensation (CAC) is to minimize neighboring blur, it automatically compensates the blur that is caused mainly by lens chromatic aberration. The CAC function is automatically activated when a lens in the CAC database is connected. The CAC database can be updated by importing CAC files, which are available in PASS. The following CAC files for AJ-HPX3700, AJ-HPX2700,AJ-HPX3000 series are newly available For Fujinon HA22X7.3BERM-M58 For Canon KJ22ex7.6B IASE / IRSE The following CAC files for AG-HPX370 , AG-HPX300 series are newly available For Canon KT17ex4.3B IRSD PS12 Learn more details and download CAC files: PASS portal P2 Asset Support System \| Broadcast and Professional AV Systems Log-in > "Library" > "Utility software" > CAC Files (for P2 Camerarecoder) So is this what we were waiting for, or is it a HPX300 emulator like somebody mentioned on another board??? __________________ Studio MAD www.studiomad.nl

August 5th, 2010, 08:00 AM	#40
Niels Neeskens Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Almelo Posts: 177	Well ridiculous right? Maybe we can have some sort of explanation from somebody from Panasonic??? __________________ Studio MAD www.studiomad.nl

August 5th, 2010, 08:31 AM	#42
Niels Neeskens Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Almelo Posts: 177	Still love the camera! Let's see if this update is for real and takes away the noise issue without turning it into a HPX300, then I would fully love this camera again. __________________ Studio MAD www.studiomad.nl

July 18th, 2010, 11:57 PM	#31
Jeff Regan Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Foster City, California Posts: 192	David, I agree with most of your assertions, broadly speaking. AVC-Intra 100 offers more than 10-bit depth vs. 8-bit depth with DVCPRO HD, as I posted, ie; no 3/4 subsampling, more efficient compression. lower noise floor. My point is that 10-bit is considered high-end, yet Panasonic has made it attainable at a price point that nobody else can touch(save RED One with 12-bit). An HPX2700 body is $19,950 with trade-in, B-stock HPX2000's can be had for $15-16K USD. Add a lens and viewfinder to a 2700, and you're at 3X the cost of a 370, but still $70K lower than Sony's only 10-bit format, HDCAM SR. I agree that visually, looking at camera original footage, 10-bit is hard to discern over 8-bit(especially with an 8-bit display device), but so it 4:4:4 color space vs. 4:2:2. The computers know the difference, and we both agree 10-bit(as well as 4:4:4) can pay dividends in post. Because Panasonic keeps messing up their CMOS models doesn't mean that AVC-Intra 100 isn't the best codec available for the money now for 2/3" CCD cameras and hopefully at some point for CMOS cameras as well. Meanwhile, Sony handicaps their under $20K cameras with a 35Mbps, 8-bit, Long GOP, 4:2:0 codec and their under $100K cameras with 8-bit, 50Mbps codecs. Anybody can buy a $20K Pansonic camera body that is 10-bit, but they can't do that with Sony. I don't want to make it seem like 10-bit is THE reason to buy a camera, but it's not a trifle either. Jeff Regan Shooting Star Video

July 19th, 2010, 08:33 AM	#33
Jeff Regan Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Foster City, California Posts: 192	Peter, You're correct, the EX cameras have 10-bit HD SDI uncompressed outputs. I don't agree that transcoding from 8-bit to 10-bit vs. acquiring and staying in 10-bit will offer more latitude, although editing on a 10-bit time line with something like Pro Res can be beneficial vs. staying in 8-bit. Jeff Regan Shooting Star Video

July 29th, 2010, 02:47 PM	#35
Jeff Regan Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Foster City, California Posts: 192	Adam Wilt just published his review of the HPX370 and addresses the noise on movement issue: ProVideo Coalition.com: Camera Log by Adam Wilt \| Founder \| Pro Cameras, HDV Camera, HD Camera, Sony, Panasonic, JVC, RED, Video Camera Reviews Jeff Regan Shooting Star Video

July 29th, 2010, 03:05 PM	#36
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Thanks Jeff, interesting read. One thing he comments on is using the Synchro Scan buttons to change frame rates and it didn't work properly but started to work once he'd fiddled about with it. From what I saw it only works when the shutter switch is in the Off position, so he probably switched it off and then it worked. Steve

August 5th, 2010, 07:15 AM	#38
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Yes, Niels, that's how it appears. As you know the problems with the HPX300 were mainly high noise and low sensitivity. "Solved" by the miraculous HPX370. But it turns out at the expense of these issues we've been talking about. "Solution", turn off the processing which "solved" the HPX300's noise issues, which leaves you, as you say, with an HPX300. Huh? So you can a) A 300 with noise, b) a 370 with little noise but weird ghosting problems, or c) something from Sony with low noise and no ghosting! Steve

August 5th, 2010, 07:16 AM	#39
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Though I suppose option c still comes with poor form factor, although Visual Impact in the UK has now taken delivery of the PMW320, so that's that out of the way too. Steve

August 5th, 2010, 08:23 AM	#41
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	With you 100% Niels. Tell you what though, apart from this issue I actually thought the camera was really, really good. Excellent viewfinder, nice ergonomics, well-built, nice lens, I was very, very impressed. Steve

August 5th, 2010, 06:03 PM	#43
Andy Shipsides Sponsor: Abel CineTech Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: New York, NY Posts: 361	I learned a little bit more about the noise reduction technology used in the HPX370/371. Panasonic is utilizing what they call 2D & 3D noise reduction techniques. In 2D noise reduction, noise is removed in and individual frame, with no relationship to other captured frames. 3D noise reduction uses information from multiple frames to reduce noise, and will generally produce the cleanest image. Panasonic uses a mix of the two because 3D noise reduction alone can cause smearing if there is a great deal of movement in the frame. So they utilize 3D noise reduction when the image is relatively static, and switch to 2D when things get moving. This is a very smart way to reduce noise, but I think it is what many of you are seeing in the image. Andy __________________ Andy Shipsides -Camera Technology Specialist AbelCineTech, New York - Visit our Blog - http://blog.abelcine.com

August 5th, 2010, 06:27 PM	#44
Dan Brockett Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 2,109	It sure would be nice if somebody experiencing this issue would post a high quality, short video sequence on Vimeo at 1080 so we could all look at it and judge as to whether this artifact is a significant limitation or merely much ado about nothing. If it is only visible in stills. who cares? If it is noticeable in motion as a significant artifact, then that is definitely not a good thing and hopefully Panasonic's solution will make everyone satisfied. Dan

August 5th, 2010, 07:19 PM	#45
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	Dan, from what I've seen is it very noticeable in moving images. That's how I noticed it, I wasn't making stills and peeping, I just watched some test shots I did and there was a funny shifting and trailing in the shots, most notably huge blocks of noise in out of focus backgrounds as soon as I panned. It was very obvious, and obviously something wrong. It's just easier to show and describe in a still so that you guys can see exactly what we're talking about. Steve