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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:02 AM   #16
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Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra

It was my understanding as well that the 50Mbs limit with the adaptor was only applicable to standard SDHC cards, not micro-P2.

But I'm not surprised there is confusion. The NAB advertising releases from Panasonic seem to be heavy with rhetoric and marketing speak ("With its breadth of recording options, ultimate image quality, variety of professional I/Os and powerful expandability, the PX5000G......." :-) ) and much lighter on the detail. It's to the extent that some bits are positively misleading. I earlier wrote:
Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
And 1080p/60 in AVC-Intra 100 seems extremely odd to me.

............Go to 1080p/50 and that same 100Mb every second must now be distributed amongst 50 frames - so half as much data per frame, each frame now can only have 2Mb or only 0.25MB.

I'd expect to see AVC-Intra 200 used to record 50/60p.
It turns out that as I'd expected, the PX5000 DOES use 200 Mbs if it has to record 1080p/50 for exactly the reasons previously said, so the compression per frame will be as for 1080p/25 at 100Mbs. The press release should have been written to say ".....will record ....1080/60p (in AVC-Intra class100)." - not "AVC-Intra 100".

Confused? Hardly surprising. It seems that they have started using the terms "AVC-Intra class 100" or "class 200" to refer to the number of bits of data allocated to each frame - and the 100 or 200 number represents the per second bitrate assuming 25 or 30 frames per second. Go to 50 or 60p and class 100 means 200Mbs, class 200 means 400Mbs. Sheesh. Who thought of that definition!?

Having hopefully cleared that up, then the more I think about it, the more the real question becomes just who is going to buy this camera? In the press release they refer to "the PX5000G will address niches in network news, documentary, high-end corporate and sports production, as well as the rental market......And recording prime programming in AVC-Intra200 today will facilitate up-rezzing to higher-level formats in the future."

Really? It seems to me that it is huge overkill for most news and even documentary filming, especially when taking into account that an AVC-Intra 200 capability is extra cost. And the "prime programming" they refer to is surely more likely to be now interested in future-proofing via 4k, even RAW than any 1080 HD system. I can't disagree with any of the points made in the section about "content future-proofing". For what they describe as "blue chip programming" with big budgets, 4k makes a lot of sense, 1080/AVC-Intra200 uprezzed just seems too little, too late. A danger of falling between stools.

Yes, the ability to pay the extra to get AVC-Intra class 200 and 1080p/50(60) recording can only be seen as good points - but are they worth the cost of this camera? With Sonys F5/55 already being bought and used, let alone what Red, Canon are doing, will anybody pay this sort of money for a camera that will "only" do 1080p/50? And still a rolling shutter.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #17
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Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra

Originally Posted by Eric Marin View Post
As microP2 supports 200 mbps and is around 200-300 euros/64GB, for me it's a good news........

So I don't feel confused with this announcement. But, I'd like Panasonic to go on 4K or to a new AF100 with AVC-Intra and Micro P2.. But I'm really not sure.
On the subject of the micro-P2 cards then again my feeling is "too little, too late" rather than there's anything actually bad about them.

First thing is to beware the 2Gbs figure that features heavily in the marketing. It's only a read speed, and represents a best possible case anyway. Max sustained write speed is a more useful figure, and hardly surprisingly that's a lot lower. They seem to say that it will definitely do 200Mbs (1080p/50 in AVC-Intra class 100 mode) - but definitely WON'T do 400Mbs (1080p/50 in AVC-Intra class 200 mode).

It's worth looking at what Sony have stated with regards to XAVC and resolution, frame and bit rates. XAVC Specification Overview | XAVC | Sony - see figure 2 and figure 3. In ball park terms, a lot of those figures will be just as applicable to AVC-Intra as to XAVC. In section 3 it states that "the F55 will record 4k XAVC INTRA at... between 240Mbs (24p) and 600Mbs (60p)" and I'd suspect any future Panasonic 4k camera would have similar figures.

Consequently, I wouldn't see micro-P2 as at all future proof. It should be able to record basic 4k at 24fps, but definitely not 60fps, and the same goes for any slow motion ability likely being severely limited. In 4k, their performance is likely to be akin to using SD cards in an EX1 with the early adaptors. Fairly reliable at normal usage, but go to slo-mo and start to up the frame rate and expect them to fall over well before 60fps.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 10:53 AM   #18
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Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra

Ah. This clarifies it. I was not clear on the SDHC and genuine Micro P2 via the adaptor bitrate. No rush into buying though unless there's workable firmware and long, non-stop recording events @ AVC-I 100. But good to know just in case I need about 12 hours of micro P2s. The question is if that micro-P2 adaptor will cost a fortune as each P2 cam will need 2 of it.

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen View Post
Where did you hear the adapter can only record micro P2 at 50mbps? I understood it to mean the full bitrate. It's 50mbps maximum when you use an SD card instead. Please provide your source of info.

Edit: Okay, I found this on a Panasonic document about the micro P2 adapter using existing equipment:

High-speed reading up to 1.0 Gbps.
Guaranteed writing speed up to AVC-Intra100
(excluding 60p/50p).

So, it can do full AVC/Intra 100 on existing models.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 02:31 PM   #19
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Re: New P2 camera with AVC ultra

The micro P2 adapter has a suggested retail price of $199.
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