P2 = PCMCIA Adapter + CF Card?

[Adrian Vallarino]

Originally Posted by Kevin Dooley

The costs of a 16 head DVCPRO HD deck are well documented and $5000 ain't cutting it. But the other thing you have to look at is that P2 is not "one-use" media, like tape. It's something you use over and over again. Technically you could buy three and pretty much never buy again. It's all a matter of switching from a workflow based on analog and tape to one based on the IT infastructure that video/film production is going to... but to each their own.

I totally agree, we are going towards Solid State, and I have been wishing this since the times of U-Matic....but....I trully think the time is not here yet.

Look at the PDA market, its huge....saddly, when Apple introduced the Newton, nobody bought it. I simply think the technology/price for a shift to solid state is not here yet.

Digital technology has created a much faster workflow, P2 creats a bump in the road. I simply don t like a format that the first thing I have to do after (or while) shooting is rush to some deck/station/notebook/etc to transfer my footage while A:Waiting and handling stuff B: Hoping nothing goes wrong in the process and I dont loose my footage that is only electronic memory, not a more permanent format.

[Giroud Francois]

the future is probably here ?
http://www.barefeats.com/fire43.html

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

If the P2 cards are the biggest stumbling block to making the purchase decision, then no reverse engineering should be necessary. Panasonic should be handing the designs over for a small fee to any third party vendor who they think has the technical expertise to design solutions. They might reserve the right in the contract to approve any design, so no-one is lumbered with lemons.

Panasonic *IS* making the P2 format available to developers and manufacturers. All the pieces are in place for third-party vendors to jump on board and start making P2 cards. I think right now we're caught in a catch-22 situation though. A lot of vendors aren't going to want to start cranking out P2 media until the camera is available and they can start seeing some initial sales figures. But a lot of potential customers may hold off until they see P2 prices fall a bit.

Originally Posted by John Mitchell

Panasonic seem very confident that the card will come down in price as memory cards traditionally have, but only by making the technology competitive and affordable can they achieve this. Relying on the cost of SD chips to plummet will only affect the wholesale price that Panasonic pay and then there will still be a premium on these chips over other solutions. IMO offering the technology for a modest licencing fee can only benefit the entire P2 line of product - including the Panasonic version of the card.

P2 cards will undoubtedly come down in price, even if Panasonic remains the sole supplier for a while. P2 media is already a semi-established standard being used by other Panasonic devices. It's a very limited use media right now, but the HVX200 will not be the first camera to make use of it. This should help somewhat. And for studios and broadcasters that are already equipped to work with DVCPro[HD], the HVX200 is a very logical purchase as it will still record in a format they can deal with and will provide short feature HD capabilities immediately with potential for longer HD shoots as the P2 format matures.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Adrian Vallarino

Give us a deck... to capture the HVX output on tape.

Already done. Panasonic offers a couple of VTR choices in the DVCPRO HD format. Of course, the least expensive one costs about $20,000. Some people seem to have difficulty realizing that this is not an HDV camcorder and the HDV tape format is in no way involved here. If you want to capture the HVX output to tape, then it sort of negates the advantages of P2, but it's certainly possible. But at $20,000, the DVCPRO HD deck is probably a rental item for most folks. Still, it's do-able, but the whole point of P2 is to completely bypass the shortcomings of tape, so why even bother... but you say you want a deck, well, the DVCPRO HD decks have been available long before P2.

Im sorry, but any other explanation than Panny trying to force their P2 platform down our throats won't convince me.

I've never understood this sort of comment... you could say that P2 is being "forced down our throats" perhaps if there were no other options. But there are plenty of other options, other formats, other choices that you have readily available. You don't want P2? Then don't buy it. It's that simple. Panasonic will sell every single HVX they make, as well as every single P2 card. You don't want to be a part of that, fine, but you can't pretend as if you have no other choice. Nobody is forcing anything "down our throats." You vote with your dollars. You buy what you want.

Unless until I can get P2 cards that store an hour of video for $29, the price of XDCam discs.

What you're not understanding is that P2 is not a storage medium. You don't store your digital photos on your digicam's flash card... you clear the card and store the photos on some other media. P2 is memory, not media. Flash memory is meant to be downloaded, cleared, and reused over and over again. If you can't grasp that concept, then you're not understanding P2.

I simply think the technology/price for a shift to solid state is not here yet.

You may choose to think that, but the reality is that solid state is here (actually has been here) for those who want it. After all this is not Panasonic's first P2 camera. Plus, I've been writing about the practical applications of tapeless video acquisition since 2001. It's here, all right, for those who want it.

Digital technology has created a much faster workflow, P2 creats a bump in the road. I simply don t like a format that the first thing I have to do after (or while) shooting is rush to some deck/station/notebook/etc to transfer my footage while A:Waiting and handling stuff B: Hoping nothing goes wrong in the process and I dont loose my footage that is only electronic memory, not a more permanent format.

Digital video on tape is nothing but ones and zeros on magnetic media, there's nothing very permanent about it. Store a tape next to an audio speaker and see how permanent it is. Browse our "Long Black Line" forum and see how robust and reliable tape is (one quick glance at all the various problems in there should be all it takes).

If you don't like the P2 workflow... where the whole point is how fast and easy it is to ingest video into an edit system... then clearly it's not for you. Someone who states that they're "afraid of losing data" with solid state clearly has never shot that way, and such a statement is basically expressing fear of the unknown. There is no "hoping nothing will go wrong" involved with solid state, or allow me to put it this way: there's much less hoping nothing will go wrong with solid state than there is with tape. You face a much greater danger of having something go wrong with tape, than you do with solid state.

Ultimately what's most important is that you have a choice between tape (in a variety of formats) or solid state (including P2) or hard disk recording (such as the FireStore and its derivatives). We cover all of that here at DV Info Net. If you've determined that P2 isn't right for you, then I'm sure you'll find another viable acquisition choice to discuss on our message boards. Hope this helps,

[Derek Serra]

Phew Chris, you sure are sold on P2! You seem to totally ignore the realities some people face in terms of the need to archive to tape or some other transportable media. As a documentary filmmaker I'd find the P2 workflow problematic to say the least. I predict that many who rush in and buy the HVX200 are going to end up spending a LOT more money than they'd initially planned to once storage and archiving costs begin to bite. It's a great technology, it's been around for a few years, and it still has not managed to grab a substantial market share, because P2 cards are just too expensive! With XDCAM HD out soon, it's going to be a hard sell...

[Adrian Vallarino]

Hi Chris,

First, I would appreciate if you don't try to patronize me or think that attacking the messenger is a way to kill the message. Just so you know Im a second generation TV "person", in fact Im a true "child of TV", my mother was a news anchor and my father a news cameraman, they met at the TV station were they worked, fell in love, married, then I was born, then they founded a TV production company. I literally grew playing with rolls of film. I got my first official badge as a camera assist. at age 12 so since Im 37 now thats 25 years in the TV business. I started working with a CP 16mm sinc sound camera and since then Ive used every camera and format that has come out.
For 15 years Ive worked for APTN and served their top clients (BBC,ABC, RTE,CNN, etc) Ive done everthing from new3s to docus, to films, shows, you name it. If you want a list of just the things Ive done since I came to the US 2 years ago, read here : http://imdb.com/name/nm1690997/

So all this said..... I do understand what a P2 card is, and I do understand thats it is JUST a capture format and all that comes with it.

And apparently so do broadcasters worldwide. According to Panasonic information ONLY 150 TV stations worldwide have adopted P2, while it is estimated that the number that adopted XDCam are over 5000.

And I stand by the idea that Panny is trying to sell us this format. You say I have options.... yes, I have , but not If I want to buy the HVX. I happen to like the idea of what the camera can deliver, I dont like the limitation it has in how it can deliver it. Do I have options?, very very few.

Regarding tapes, Ive been using them for more than 20 years, I have placed them in the worst possible places and environments, never had a big problem.
Cant say the same thing about flash cards.

And comparing the needs and workflow of still photography with the needs of TV/Film production is simply like comparing Apples and Oranges.

Flash cards are great for still photography, but at the current price, capacity and how they fit into the work flow and archiving, they are simply not a very good idea.

Will the HVX have a niche, of course, will it be a big one, most certainly not. In fact, your statement that Panasonic will sell every single HVX they produce will be true if they manufacture a very small amount. It is estimate that Sony has sold between 80.000 and 100.000 HDV cameras since they introduced the FX/Z1, Id like to see the HVX get to that kind of numbers. I dont think they will in the lifetime of the model.

Look, solid state is a great idea, and probably it will be huge sometime down the road (5 years+) but its simply not there yet.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Derek Serra

Phew Chris, you sure are sold on P2! You seem to totally ignore the realities some people face in terms of the need to archive to tape or some other transportable media.

Hi Derek, I am not "sold" on P2 at all; I simply understand it both for what it is and isn't. And I certainly do understand the needs of some people to archive to tape; see my earlier posts in this forum about archiving to DLT, which probably makes the most sense for the money. P2 is simply how the data gets to the editing computer. Archival from that point is no different than it would be with any other 100mbps HD format. There's a broad range of options for archiving. In my opinion, tape-based DLT makes the most sense but there are other solutions to choose from. If you want to be shooting tape and archiving those camera originals right from the start, then DVCPRO HD, if you can afford it, is your format.

As a documentary filmmaker I'd find the P2 workflow problematic to say the least.

Problematic for you, perhaps, but not for everyone. Clearly P2 was originally intended for news. Some filmmakers will embrace it, some will not; as you know there is no "one way" and no single correct approach to such a diverse artistic form as filmmaking. P2 will be right for some filmmakers and not for others.

I predict that many who rush in and buy the HVX200 are going to end up spending a LOT more money than they'd initially planned to once storage and archiving costs begin to bite.

Not if they're properly educated they won't, which is the whole idea behind this forum and its accompanying site, www.p2info.net. As long as HVX200 buyers understand that this is a DVCPRO HD camera, with the storage and archival requirements associated with that format, then there's no surprise involved. P2 itself doesn't really have anything to do with this. P2 is simply the means of getting the video data into the system. Storage and archival requirements are a function of the format, and that's the difference between DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO 50 and plain vanilla DV. The HVX200 buyer needs to understand the requirements of working with the DVCPRO HD format. And if they're not ready to takle the storage and archival requirements of a 100mbps format, there's still the option of recording 50mbps (DVCPRO 50) and 25mbps (DV or DVCPRO).

It's a great technology, it's been around for a few years, and it still has not managed to grab a substantial market share, because P2 cards are just too expensive!

Thankfully since this is a practical community discussing usability, market share is happily no concern of ours. But it's important to realize that P2 cards are not at all expensive, compared to your other options of acquiring DVCPRO HD. You need only a handful of cards, and they pay for themselves quickly, compared to the cost of DVCPRO HD tape stock plus the $20,000 deck needed to play DVCPRO HD tapes. That is, relative to your other choices for shooting DVCPRO HD, P2 is a bargain in comparison to DVCPRO HD tape and its requisite hardware.

With XDCAM HD out soon, it's going to be a hard sell...

I doubt it. XDCAM HD certainly has its place but it won't available under $10K like the HVX.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Adrian Vallarino

Hi Chris, First, I would appreciate if you don't try to patronize me or think that attacking the messenger is a way to kill the message.

Hi Adrian, you were not being patronized and besides we don't allow that here (see our policy page above). This is not your typical internet message board. You were not being attacked, and I saw no message at all, only a question regarding HVX output to tape. And I answered that: the HD format of this camera is DVCPRO HD. The least expensive DVCPRO HD deck costs in the neighborhood of $20,000. There is no $5,000 option. The tape transport for DVCPRO HD by itself runs about $16,000.

So all this said..... I do understand what a P2 card is, and I do understand thats it is JUST a capture format and all that comes with it.

Then we're clear that it's not a storage medium like tape is... great.

And apparently so do broadcasters worldwide. According to Panasonic information ONLY 150 TV stations worldwide have adopted P2, while it is estimated that the number that adopted XDCam are over 5000.

To that I would have to say: so what? I don't see how that's relevant to this discussion. You're still new to DV Info Net... this community is not about who sells more or what the market share is... none of that means anything here. This is a *usability* forum. I don't care how narrow the niche market is for this technology; if people want to talk about *using* it, then this is the place. The last thing I want to see here is anything close to a platform war... I don't have an XDCAM board up yet but there probably will be one very soon here. Point being, and this is a crucial thing to understand about this message board, we don't do platform wars. If you're convinced that this technology isn't right for you, then please move on to one of our other forums. The number of units sold by Brand X over Brand Y doesn't directly impact the end user's direct experience with the camera, and although that may be a hot topic for some folks, it isn't what we do here. In all honesty, I started this community to get away from that sort of needless, pointless debate about market share and numbers and all that nonsense. There are a variety of other message boards out on the net that specialize in that sort of thing, but this ain't one of them.

And I stand by the idea that Panny is trying to sell us this format. You say I have options.... yes, I have , but not If I want to buy the HVX. I happen to like the idea of what the camera can deliver, I dont like the limitation it has in how it can deliver it. Do I have options?, very very few.

Please permit me to respectfully suggest that perhaps your expectations are not altogether completely realistic. The HVX200 offers a way to shoot DVCPRO HD for under $10,000. The fact that it is a P2 camera based on flash memory negates the need for a $20,000 DVCPRO HD tape deck, plus it entirely bypasses the video capture process. Buying into this camera means that you can shoot DVCPRO HD for subtantially less than it would cost to shoot DVCPRO HD on tape.

The next best way to shoot DVCPRO HD is with the VariCam, for a significant increase in price. My own best advice is to first choose your format... determine what kind of workflow is best for what you do... then choose the camera. Shooting DVCPRO HD on tape is one thing, at an entirely different, much higher level of cost than shooting DVCPRO HD on P2 cards with the HVX200. And while clearly the P2 workflow does not suit everyone, and may not suit you, you still have to consider the other alternatives for acquiring DVCPRO HD. There are other ways to shoot DVCPRO HD, and they're definitely tape based, but the associated costs are dramatically higher. The little HVX P2 camcorder is the most affordable way to shoot in the DVCPRO HD format. You have to compare it to the other available options for DVCPRO HD in order to see that. But then there's also the 100GB FireStore for this camcorder... again not a practical solution for everyone... but it's definitely another possible way to go.

Will the HVX have a niche, of course, will it be a big one, most certainly not. In fact, your statement that Panasonic will sell every single HVX they produce will be true if they manufacture a very small amount. It is estimate that Sony has sold between 80.000 and 100.000 HDV cameras since they introduced the FX/Z1, Id like to see the HVX get to that kind of numbers. I dont think they will in the lifetime of the model.

Again, happily this is of absolutely no concern here at DV Info Net. How many are made or sold compared to whoever else, makes no tangible difference whatsoever to the proceedings at this online community. All that matters is that whether Panasonic sells five units or fifty thousand, there will be a place here on these message boards for their owners to discuss them.

Look, solid state is a great idea, and probably it will be huge sometime down the road (5 years+) but its simply not there yet.

And once again... perhaps *you* feel this way... but others, myself included, do not agree. Solid state is here right now, if you want it. Or at least it will be at a price point below $10K within a month or two from now.