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Old December 12th, 2005, 02:36 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barlow Elton
Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.
Both of those sound great to me. However, most likely by the time it hits any distribution format, it won't look nearly as good as your uncompressed master, or even a DVCPROHD master, unless you're going film out. Now let's think of how it'll look on someone's Tivo. :)
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Old December 12th, 2005, 03:15 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Donatello
have you put in a request or asked sony if they plan to add native DVCproHD or a DirectX 100 codec support in Vegas ?
Oh heavens yes. Several threads on the official Sony Vegas forum, as well as on DVXUser, direct contact with them at trade shows, and even a conference call with some Vegas employees. They're well aware that we want it.

Quote:
in general for DvcProHd there has been little native support for it in NLE's ...maybe that will change in 2006 ?
The "big two", Avid and FCP, have it already and have had it for a while. Canoups has full support. Liquid is expected to support it -- they already have MXF support, it's probably just a matter of integrating a DV100 codec and Avid happens to make one and coincidentally they just bought Pinnacle, so it seems likely that Pinnacle/Avid Liquid will support it.

The only major-market-share players that don't have native support yet are Premiere and Vegas. Rumors abound that Premiere Pro 2.0 will have support. Haven't heard any encouraging rumors about Vegas yet.
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Old December 12th, 2005, 04:28 PM   #48
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Yes its a sad day for Vegas. Barry Green is dropping it as his NLE, and moving out of Vegas Nevada in disgust to make a point. No more Vegas love.

:(

Has anyone tried the Edius Demo from Canopus? I cant get it to even run.
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Old December 12th, 2005, 07:04 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barlow Elton
Sure, but what deck are you going to output to? D5? HDCAM SR? At some point you have to reintroduce compression unless you can output to a very expensive tape deck.
Here is an interesting workflow that many of us may be following in the near future and even tho Preimere Pro will have a DVCPRO HD codec I think this may be better....

Article:

http://www.videosystems.com/mag/vide...sician_laptop/

Final Video:

http://www.formikafilms.com/cactusflower/JG480p.html
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Old December 12th, 2005, 11:44 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barlow Elton
FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"
This is VERY VERY worrying... Specially on the dv50 file... SO, basically, if I render a clip with effects for 10x, it gets white???? No , thank you!

The dvcprohd didn't show much trouble, tough.

So there really is a generational loss if you apply Effects and transitions to a clip in FCP. I always felt that, after applying and effect on a certain clip, it got worse (not very noticeable, but you could see a slight difference in quality).
Any way to get over this? Will deleting the preview files save us from this generational loss? How to avoid it without having to recapture everything? Not using uncompressed, of course...
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Old December 13th, 2005, 12:24 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergio Perez
This is VERY VERY worrying... Specially on the dv50 file... SO, basically, if I render a clip with effects for 10x, it gets white???? No , thank you!

The dvcprohd didn't show much trouble, tough.

So there really is a generational loss if you apply Effects and transitions to a clip in FCP. I always felt that, after applying and effect on a certain clip, it got worse (not very noticeable, but you could see a slight difference in quality).
Any way to get over this? Will deleting the preview files save us from this generational loss? How to avoid it without having to recapture everything? Not using uncompressed, of course...
There should be NO reason that anyone goes through 10 freakin generations of compression. It's just to test degradation in general.

Never use any of these compression formats any more than you have to.

I advise using the native codec while editing, color correction, maybe some compositing, only. Then for your finished master, use Uncompressed 10-bit . Then use that to encode or output to whatever your final distribution format is.

Do this by changing the compressor setting under Sequence Settings (Command-0). Very nice workflow.

I would start using Uncompressed instead of the native codec if I was doing green/blue screen key work, but I'd do that in After Effects on uncompressed exported clips from FCP anyway. Other special effects work, I would also do in Uncompressed. If the project looks like most of it is of this type, and not barebones FCP work on the original DVCPRO/DVCPROHD files, I would probably switch the entire project over to Uncompressed to work through it.

It can be argued that eventually you will have to compress your footage again, whether it's printing to DVCPRO50, DVCPROHD, HDCAM, Mpeg2, H.264, WMV, etc. But at least it's only twice compressed. Once when you shot it, and once you deliver it. If it's going to broadcast, it'll get compressed yet a third time, and we'll never be too impressed with it at that point, compared to what we saw in our master.
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Old December 13th, 2005, 12:44 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barlow Elton
FCP is a great tool, but it still has some codec issues as far as rendering DVCPRO HD goes.

http://codecs.onerivermedia.com/

"render with caution"

Uhhh... are you aware that site hasnt been updated in 17 months?



ash =o)
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Old December 13th, 2005, 03:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steev Dinkins
There should be NO reason that anyone goes through 10 freakin generations of compression. It's just to test degradation in general.

Never use any of these compression formats any more than you have to.

I advise using the native codec while editing, color correction, maybe some compositing, only. Then for your finished master, use Uncompressed 10-bit . Then use that to encode or output to whatever your final distribution format is.

Do this by changing the compressor setting under Sequence Settings (Command-0). Very nice workflow.

I would start using Uncompressed instead of the native codec if I was doing green/blue screen key work, but I'd do that in After Effects on uncompressed exported clips from FCP anyway. Other special effects work, I would also do in Uncompressed. If the project looks like most of it is of this type, and not barebones FCP work on the original DVCPRO/DVCPROHD files, I would probably switch the entire project over to Uncompressed to work through it.

It can be argued that eventually you will have to compress your footage again, whether it's printing to DVCPRO50, DVCPROHD, HDCAM, Mpeg2, H.264, WMV, etc. But at least it's only twice compressed. Once when you shot it, and once you deliver it. If it's going to broadcast, it'll get compressed yet a third time, and we'll never be too impressed with it at that point, compared to what we saw in our master.
Thanks for the suggested workflow. Much appreciated.
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Old December 13th, 2005, 10:41 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarred Land
Has anyone tried the Edius Demo from Canopus? I cant get it to even run.
If the problem continues, why not ask over at the Canopus Edius forum?
http://forum.canopus.com/
You will need to register to do that.
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Old December 13th, 2005, 10:36 PM   #55
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Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD,
Panasonic DVCPRO P2,Panasonic VariCam,Sony XDCAM,Windows Media(HD)...along with all other formats(DV,Mpeg etc) on the same timeline...and that is running OHCI without a hardware card...take a look http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIU...cast/index.php

The package is Edius 3.0 NLE plus all the plugins and codec options bundled together. Also 4.0 is coming and all of the features mentioned lacking here are being addressed....like better keyframe control of effects. 4.0 will be a big jump for Edius which isn't to shabby right now.
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Old December 13th, 2005, 11:41 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Donato
Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD
Edius Broadcast is available to order now through authorized dealers. I downloaded the Edius Pro demo today and will give it a test drive tomorrow. From what I've read/seen thus far, it looks promising and probably a better solution than Avid for me. Avid's Liquid Pro is more of a "prosumer" solution and it doesn't directly support DVCPro (just HDV at the moment) and to go to Avid's Xpress Studio HD, it's more than double the cost of Edius Broadcast. So far, my only concerns are the audio capabilities. This is where I really wish I could hold onto Vegas. But for $1K or thereabouts, Edius may be the solution of choice, even if it's an interim one until Vegas or Premiere catch up with DVCPRO.
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Old December 14th, 2005, 07:59 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
So far, my only concerns are the audio capabilities. This is where I really wish I could hold onto Vegas. But for $1K or thereabouts, Edius may be the solution of choice, even if it's an interim one until Vegas or Premiere catch up with DVCPRO.
It is a valid concern but we do audio in an app like Audition or SoundForge. The lack of audio tools has its roots in the fact that Edius is designed with RT full frame full resolution output to external monitor as an overiding goal. To do that audio/video synch via the hardware cards holds them back from allowing you to play too much with the audio.Also VSts work with Edius. There has been some talk of an ability to work with proTools and that would solve it but for now the audio is indeed lacking.
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Old December 14th, 2005, 08:42 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Donato
Canopus just announced "Edius Broadcast" for 1k or 500 bucks upgrade from Edius 3 which has support for Panasonic DVCPRO 50 and DVCPRO HD...
Thanks Randy! I hadn't seen this concise a summary of what Edius Broadcast does or what the pricing was. Guess now I know what I need to put on my shopping list for next year.
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Old December 14th, 2005, 11:30 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
Uhhh... are you aware that site hasnt been updated in 17 months?

Well, you learn something new everyday! I found the site (which is still linked to) via Mike Curtis' hdforindies.com blog. All I can tell you is my own experiences with DVCPROHD are mixed. It's a great codec for editing, mostly just because it's intraframe, but people talking about how well it'll hold up for color correction are maybe a tad off. I think it has the same issues as regular DV, but the heavier compression might be masked a bit due to the higher resolution frames and 4.2.2

The poster who said the workflow should be edit in DVCPRO and rerender a final sequence in 10 bit uncompressed is spot on...provided you have the RAID to deal with it.
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Old December 14th, 2005, 11:39 AM   #60
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When there's time, I'll post a few frames from a film I've worked on, and show you where the codec goes to hell.
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