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Old December 21st, 2005, 07:37 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls
You certain about that statement too Brian??
Yes, and he is correct.

Shannon -- seems like you're into some heavy trolling recently. If you're happy with your Canon, that's great, but let the JVC and HVX guys discuss their products in peace without you ragging on them or laughing at them, okay?
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Old December 21st, 2005, 08:10 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls
Are you sure buddy?
Sadly, I seem to have put my phrase "if I'm not mistaken" in the wrong paragraph. I should have put it in the paragraph about the dub to tape, because I was remembering that function incorrectly. It can't do it simultaneously.

But, I shouldn't have included that phrase in the paragraph about watching the slow motion on MiniDV because evidently I got that right, according to Barry, whom I believe. So yes, buddy.

And I'm so sorry for anyone that went out and bought a HVX200 based upon my posting. Please let me know if you did because I will gladly refund your money. I am sorry for spreading such misinformation on such a clean pure-fact only forum. I hate myself.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 08:19 PM   #48
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And if I only read the thread after this one first I would have seen my mistake and not posted about the simulataneous P2 and tape things. I was so close to being cool, then I blew it.

But Shannon, I did tell you about 2 features that you weren't aware of. The "good take" button and the slow motion on MiniDV. 2 out of 3. Not too bad right? I know I'm a newbie (techinally "regular crew") Shannon, but please oh please don't kick me out. I know I'm not "inner circle" but someday. Someday. A boy can dream. Don't crush my little dreams. Please. Let the boy dream.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 08:20 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Green
If you're happy with your Canon, that's great, but let the JVC and HVX guys discuss their products in peace without you ragging on them or laughing at them, okay?
This is the best advice I've seen yet in this thread. It's a great suggestion. I would hate to be the one who had to enforce it, but I will if I have to. The trolling is seriously starting to drag down the quality of our community here. Thanks in advance,
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Old December 21st, 2005, 08:34 PM   #50
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Trolling?
Camera Flamming?
Because I said I prefer a Tape after shooting and gave an explanation why?
Ahh man, you guys ain't fair!

But, OK. I'll lay low. I think it's because I have too much time on my hands every December and I like it here so much.

and Barry & Brian...It has "selectable" frame rates, not Variable. Only the Varicam has Variable.

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Old December 21st, 2005, 08:46 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls
and Barry & Brian...It has "selectable" frame rates, not Variable. Only the Varicam has Variable.
Correct, but of no relevance to the point we were discussing.

And no need to lay low. I feel like I know you since I've seen the pix you posted of you in your white living room. Plus I want to see some Canon footage from you. The watchmaker stuff is of no use to me since it was made using an DVCPRO-HD deck, which I would not have access to.
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:09 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Petersen
Please let me know if you did because I will gladly refund your money.
You! Oh, I'm gonna... It's all YOUR fault! Er... How 'bout I just PM you with my address so you can mail the check. :)

hehehe
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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:33 PM   #53
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I am not format or camera specific in my views. I am currently working on several projects, some being edited on Mac, some PC, some shot with a Varicam being edited in DVCproHD, some shot on a DVX100b, XL2, SDX900, etc. etc. etc. and I can tell you that in 10 years of doing digital video I have never had anyone ask for freelance stuff on anything but tape.

The tapeless workflow, while a dream for many, has some serious issues. What becomes of the "master" back-up? A project I just helped out on was going directly into an Avid system on the fly but was ALSO being recorded to tape via a Varicam. I actually really like this workflow the best, you have the benefits of tape and the benefits of HDD recording. The shots were all logged on the computer and an offline edit was done. The only capturing was to rebuild via an online edit. Of course, this only works in a studio environment.

As more people go tapeless and tape begins to dissapear (going to be longer than most of you think) I think a wise investment would be to pour a bunch of cash into a data recovery company because I PROMISE you, their biz will be going up.... way up...



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Old December 21st, 2005, 09:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
As more people go tapeless and tape begins to dissapear (going to be longer than most of you think) I think a wise investment would be to pour a bunch of cash into a data recovery company because I PROMISE you, their biz will be going up.... way up...
I really don't understand why so many people have these false beliefs and why everyone thinks that data backup solutions in the form of DLT, LTO, MO, etc.. are any less reliable than DV/HDCAM/DVCPRO or whatever video tape. How do you think large financial institutions archive their data? What about insurance companies that archive tens of thousands of gigabytes annually consisting of photographs, audio recordings, some video, documents, etc? I have yet to lose any project I have ever properly archived. There are several archival technologies out there that I would trust a lot more than MiniDV tape. I'm not saying that DV tape is bad, on the contrary, it's great, we all know it is. But all the naysayers would rather scoff at the tapeless possibilities rather than admit that they just don't understand or are not truly aware of what options are available.

Anyway, fine with me... Live in the past. Once tapeless production workflows catch on a bit, tape will die a swift and painless death. I give it about 5 to 7 years. And I feel that is being generous...
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 02:26 AM   #55
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Regarding the simultaneous recording to P2 and miniDV, or any other tape format for that matter (Barry please feel free to chime in here): Wouldn't it be possible to simultaneously record to P2 and go Firewire or component out to an external deck? I can't imagine this isn't possible, as I'm sure the HVX supports the capability to view on an external monitor, and the only way to GET to an external monitor would be through one of these methods (or S-video, or of course composite). So, in a way, Brian is right.

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Old December 22nd, 2005, 07:47 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
I really don't understand why so many people have these false beliefs and why everyone thinks that data backup solutions in the form of DLT, LTO, MO, etc.. are any less reliable than DV/HDCAM/DVCPRO or whatever video tape.
I think the concern here is that if you're only recording to a DTE drive while shooting with no P2 backup, then there's a risk of losing some or all of your footage until you can get it off the DTE into more robust storage solutions. This came up in a discussion with Panasonic reps at WEVA back in August, and someone said he's heard of people having problems with Firestore drives for DV shooters...so presumably the same thing will apply to DVCProHD. In other words, for anything really critical it'd be prudent to record to both DTE and P2 cards, with appropriate planning for managing both recording solutions.
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 07:55 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toke Lahti
So the uncompress-recompress chain will remain long at least for years from today and in every step the quality can only get worse. If you start with hdv, end user will receive somthing much less. If you start with dv100 the end user can have something that's even better than hdv's camera originals.
Makes sense. I like the idea that the end product can be high-bandwidth (25-35 Mpbs) HD MPEG2 which could be re-edited in the future if the master isn't available, but it stands to reason that having higher quality (e.g. DVCProHD) originals is a good thing.
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 09:34 AM   #58
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This type of topic will never end. Some will go to no end to stick up for their investment and work flow they are used to. Are they wrong, not in their minds, and why should they be.

Fortunatey, there is a drive for advances in technology. I remember when I was an early adopted with DVDs. Blockbuster had maybe 40 titles in the corner of their store. When I mentioned to the sales guy, don't worry the day is coming when all you will have is DVDs, he laughed. Guess what, that day is now.

I happen to like the idea of a tapeless recording solution. If I need to hand out a tape at the end of the day, I'll bounce it to the internal miniDV tape.
If they want the HD. I'll hand them one of my cheap external firewire drives.

My main work is in the audio field. I know this is another world and different reasons reside for hard disk verses tape recording. On thing for sure, I don't miss is the waiting on the transport!

Steve
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 10:57 AM   #59
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Steve: camera comparisons aside, I gather that there is a legimate concern (based on user experience) regarding the reliability of hard drive based recording solutions. If the P2 cards don't have that problem then that's a point in their favor, but the DTE approach many will use with the HVX200 is something to think through before going on a critical shoot. This doesn't mean the trend away from tape is a bad thing, it's just something to be approached with caution.
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Old December 22nd, 2005, 11:57 AM   #60
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Thanks Kevin, Agreed!

Regardless of your workflow, there will be its shortcomings. We've all learned what they are and how to handle them.

It will be interesting when more DTE solutions are offered to us. I'm scared like everyone else when it comes to losing footage. I can only hope as memory demands increase (which they are), we'll be offered capturing and backup solutions that offer some sort of redundancy.

Man, I'm already taking chances with my NLE by running RAID 0 drive arrangements.

I think a lot of this worry will be put to rest as more higher data capacity media solutions hit the market over the next couple years.

By the way, I do have an HVX200 preordered through EVS, but I must admit that the Canon XLH1 is one NICE package!

Steve
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