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Old December 23rd, 2005, 12:58 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Aaron
It's 4 SD cards in a raid if I remember correctly from NAB. I think the controller is proprietary (just a guess) and that's what Panasonic is making their money on. The price will come down when Panasonic decides to lower it... but only part of the price is the SD price, the rest is whatever that raid costs + profit margin.
Not exactly "RAID", but yes it uses a quad-channel, interleaved memory controller. I wouldn't guess that it's a proprietary memory controller as there are already several commodity controllers on the market that would more than do the job.

Yeah, we've been over the whole P2 pricing issue on here and current prices of the 4GB aren't bad at all. We're probably paying about a 15% premium just because they're only available branded with the Panasonic name right now.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 02:10 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
I wouldn't guess that it's a proprietary memory controller as there are already several commodity controllers on the market that would more than do the job.
I'm late to this conversation, so I apologize if this has been drummed to death (which it probably has).

It seems to me that Panasonic is probably protecting some part of P2 as proprietary and wants to make money selling "ink not printers".

I think we agree that the technology behind it is probably reasonably straightforward and would be easy to copy. But I wonder if you'd have to pay a licensing fee to Panasonic to do so. I'm not a patent lawyer so I don't know.

Bottom line for me? I'm on the preorder list for an HVX. Will something I read change my mind? Maybe...
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 02:48 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Joel Aaron
I'm late to this conversation, so I apologize if this has been drummed to death (which it probably has).
No big deal.. We have been beating a lot of P2, tapeless workflow, etc.. type discussions to death around here lately.

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It seems to me that Panasonic is probably protecting some part of P2 as proprietary and wants to make money selling "ink not printers".
Actually, P2 is pretty open. You would have to contact Panasonic directly for details, but anyone with the proper manufacturing capabilities could easily become a P2 vendor. As of right now, Panasonic is the only one distributing them (I'm sure this will change as all these HVX cameras ship out). So obviously we pay more, just as we do for Panny branded batteries or whatnot. But the prices aren't out of line at all (ignore the 8GB price, it's not available and the price hasn't been adjusted just yet).

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Bottom line for me? I'm on the preorder list for an HVX. Will something I read change my mind? Maybe...
I think just about everyone here is on a preorder list somewhere. :) So far, I'm reading all I can about the XLH1 and the HVX200 and as of now, the HVX200 looks like its a go. The XLH1 is tempting and if it were about $2500 cheaper, I probably wouldn't have fought the impulse to buy it. If video from both cameras can be cut together fairly well, then I will probably end up owning both and selling both my DVX100s.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 03:23 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Aaron
It seems to me that Panasonic is probably protecting some part of P2 as proprietary and wants to make money selling "ink not printers".
Not at all. Remember, Panasonic has a formula for that -- it's called tape. Panasonic makes an absurdly massive amount of tape each year, I believe I read at some point that they make 70% of the DV tape sold. Tape is where the "ink not printers" formula works, because people just keep buying more and more of it.

P2 cards are the opposite. P2 cards are reusable, ink isn't. It is more likely that someone may only ever buy two or three cards during the functional life of their camera. P2 cards are more like RAM sticks in a computer; they're not consumable media like blank CDs or blank tapes. They're reusable temporary flash storage. Buy two or three and you'll never need another one.

Plus, don't forget that Panasonic is actively helping people to develop alternatives to P2 as well. They're partnering with Focus on the FireStore, and they made streaming HD possible out the firewire port so someone can use a computer or a tape deck to record the signal at full quality, completely allowing them to bypass P2 if they so choose (and if their workflow allows).

P2 is one option. But it's not in any way a "razor & blades" type of business model. If the cards were cheap enough to be classified as "one-use" (such as a 64gb card for $50) then yes, that may apply. But it'll be a long, long, long time before flash memory reaches that state!

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But I wonder if you'd have to pay a licensing fee to Panasonic to do so. I'm not a patent lawyer so I don't know.
It is my understanding that they will license to anyone who wants to manufacture a P2-compatible product. But in order to carry the P2 label, those manufacturers would have to meet the quality standards that Panasonic expects -- it'd have to be a certain write speed, certain reliability, etc.

However, if someone wants to invent a new product and not call it "P2", I don't know that they'd even need to talk to panasonic about that. I believe that's what spec-comm is doing with their CinePorter -- I don't believe I've heard mention of any sort of licensing or Panasonic approval on that product. So it would seem possible for alternative manufacturers to come out with their own product as well, and just not label it P2.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 04:07 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Barry Green
P2 is one option. But it's not in any way a "razor & blades" type of business model.
Do we know if partners are paying for licensing?

If not, then I guess you're right. That's the "ink" I was talking about... not a physical product necessarily. There's no need for Panasonic to make P2 cards or storage devices themselves really. But they DO need to make a profit... and I'm not sure how profitable these cameras really are after all the R&D etc.

This totally doesn't matter, but I'll toss it in because it's fun to think about... in the same way it's fun to think about "why are aliens gray".

My bet is that it was Panasonic's original intention to corner P2. They didn't really open up P2 until AFTER NAB and AFTER there was a helluvalotta negative feedback about P2 on places like this board. As a RESULT of our feedback they quickly realized P2 could fail and so could the HVX.

I specifically asked a Panasonic rep at NAB if there would be a hard drive solution and he said "NO, can't be done, firewire's not fast enough". Well, we KNOW it CAN be done and he was dead wrong in saying that to me. Soon after NAB Jan was saying "Oh yeah... 3rd party vendors are going to make hard drive solutions."

Does anyone who's signed an agreement with Panasonic actually KNOW if there's a P2 licensing fee? I wouldn't be suprised to find non-disclosure on that topic though. But kinda like "Microsoft Certified" I bet "P2 Approved" costs money.
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Old December 23rd, 2005, 04:26 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
So far, I'm reading all I can about the XLH1 and the HVX200 and as of now, the HVX200 looks like its a go. The XLH1 is tempting and if it were about $2500 cheaper, I probably wouldn't have fought the impulse to buy it.
I'm in the same place you are. None of the three cameras really knocks my socks off in every way. The HVX seems to have what I think I'll use most for the money. Very tough call though. (Gimme JVC's size and lens mount, the HVX's codec and frame rates and Canon's Digital Out).

That camera is probably on the way next.
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Old December 25th, 2005, 03:05 AM   #82
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I think I'm in the same position as jeff and joel. No camera is really calling me, but if 6K all of a sudden fell out of the sky and landed on my lap, I'd buy the HVX after I got out of the hospital. While the codec sounds great and P2 recording is neat, the only real reason I'm interested in this camera is a selectable frame rate. As a narrative filmmaker thats worth its weight in gold. If the JVC had it I'd want that, CA split screen and all. Same for the Canon. Everything else on the HVX is just a neat add on. Anyone else with me on this?

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Old December 25th, 2005, 12:35 PM   #83
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Maybe it's just me...

I've had some bad luck with DV tape, and oddly it seems to happen during my best footage.

I'm really looking forward to P2.

I do like the HD100, but I can not live with its CA and SSE issues, not to mention I'm not all that thrilled with HDV.

I've seen some great looking footage from the JVC, but I've also seen its shortcomings.
The HVX offers so much capability for its price and is flexible to use in many different formats.

Steve
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