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Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders
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Old December 29th, 2005, 11:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Seeman
I think Jan C. may have implied (or I inferred) on another thread that some Windows NLEs might be able to read the MXF files.
Avid Express Pro HD and Canopus Edius Broadcast could both see the native .MXF files. Avid Express Pro HD users can also see the quicktime files.

The Avid DV100 (DVCPRO-HD) codec is freely downloadable, but that in and of itself doesn't let windows users see these files. You actually have to be running Avid in order to see them.

So right now the quicktimes are only viable for Mac users and for Avid Express Pro HD users.
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Old December 29th, 2005, 11:54 PM   #17
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MOV to AVI - missing DVCProHD!

FCP and QuicktimePro can of course play DVCProHD without issue BUT can only save DVCPro and DVCPro50 to AVI.

Why the heck would then NOT provide a means to save DVCProHD to an AVI wrapper?

I've done MANY projects where I've had to move DV wrapped in .mov to .avi for clients to some things on their own Windows NLE and graphics systems and never thought that they'd exclude DVCProHD, especially since they support DVCPro50 to AVI.

Apple deserves a MAJOR spanking on this one!
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Old December 30th, 2005, 12:06 AM   #18
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long time watcher - noob poster here ...

Hey, Craig - think Apple will certainly release a save to .avi. Next QT update - or with OS 10.4.4 - my guess only.

Don't think Panasonic could have reliably informed them prior to the last qt update, when the release date would be.

Sheesh - the whole game is moving sooo fast atm, as I know you know - not just for us but Apple and devs as well ...
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Old December 30th, 2005, 12:33 AM   #19
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Rob,

Apple supported DVCProHD in Final Cut Pro 4.5. FCP4.x came with QuicktimePro 6.5.x. You'd think by the time Apple released FCP5 (which added HDV support) and came with QuicktimePro 7, they'd have included the ability to save DVCProHD to AVI. It wouldn't be a great leap for them since they do support saving DVCPro50 to AVI.

Some thinking out loud.
There are basically three major NLEs on the Mac. Final Cut Pro, Avid which is cross platform, Media 100 (now owned by Boris) which has a software only version of Media 100. I'm not sure if that'll be cross platform but I would suspect the various Media 100s on the Windows side can read files out of the Media 100 variants on the Mac side.

Addendum - I also looked at exporting to DV stream and that too supports DVCPro and DVCPro50 but NOT DVCProHD

Barry,
You mention Avid Express HD supporting Quicktime. Canopus Edius Broadcast supports MXF. Will it support DVCProHD in an AVI wrapper?
Does Avid Express HD support MXF or would one have to go to the "higher" Avid systems? What about Pinnacle now owned by Avid (Avid Liquid)? Sony Vegas or would one have to have an Xpri?

I'm trying to discern which Windows NLEs support DVCProHD and if there's a common wrapper between MXF and AVI (apparently NOT MOV) they can handle DVCProHD in?

I see this as a major issue for people who work in cross platform environments.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 12:49 AM   #20
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"Rob,

Apple supported DVCProHD in Final Cut Pro 4.5. FCP4.x came with QuicktimePro 6.5.x. You'd think by the time Apple released FCP5 (which added HDV support) and came with QuicktimePro 7, they'd have included the ability to save DVCProHD to AVI. It wouldn't be a great leap for them since they do support saving DVCPro50 to AVI"

I agree - as you say, cross platform working environments are common. Yes, it's necessary.
Apple's call I'd say.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 01:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Seeman
Canopus Edius Broadcast supports MXF. Will it support DVCProHD in an AVI wrapper?
Canopus keeps the file in MXF format throughout the entire production process. I believe they can also export an AVI; Canopus has a software DVCPRO-HD codec called Canopus HD; they've actually had that for a long time. The new Broadcast version combines their previous option packs together to make a one-package bundle that gives you everything you need. At least, that's what I got from them at the DV Expo demo; I haven't delved any deeper into Edius than that demo.

Quote:
Does Avid Express HD support MXF or would one have to go to the "higher" Avid systems?
Express Pro HD has full MXF support, and all the higher-end systems do too.

Quote:
What about Pinnacle now owned by Avid (Avid Liquid)?
Stephen L. Noe knows a lot more about Pinnacle than I do; from what I understand the current edition of Liquid has native .MXF support and also has DVCPRO50 support. It doesn't have HD support, but it would seem relatively minor to add that, especially since their new parent company Avid freely distributes a DVCPRO-HD codec.

Quote:
Sony Vegas or would one have to have an Xpri?
Sony's Vegas is the odd man out right now. They have no support whatsoever for DVCPRO50, DVCPRO-HD, or MXF files (other than the proprietary Sony-only flavor of MXF as used in the Sony XDCAM product). There's been much discussion back and forth about whether Vegas would support DVCPRO-HD; I've been in contact with some people there and done what I can to facilitate them moving forward, but I don't know if or when we'll see proper support implemented.

Quote:
I'm trying to discern which Windows NLEs support DVCProHD and if there's a common wrapper between MXF and AVI (apparently NOT MOV) they can handle DVCProHD in?
Canopus Edius Broadcast has the most thorough end-to-end MXF support and they have thoroughly integrated DVCPRO-HD support. You can edit MXF files straight from the card in Edius.

Avid is only the slightest bit behind; they apparently don't maintain 100% of the metadata all the way through the production process, but they do have native DVCPRO-HD support and native MXF support.

Apple has excellent DVCPRO-HD support, but the weakest MXF support. It doesn't really support MXF natively at all; FCP requires you to "ingest" the P2 MXF files, which unwraps them and re-wraps them into Quicktime .MOVs. Once that's done, the editing process is sweet and real-time, but that process does take time.

Neither Avid nor Canopus make you do that. If you're PC-based, Avid Express Pro HD and Canopus Edius Broadcast are what you want to be looking at; they're 100% fully-functional, fully-integrated, realtime editing stations for DVCPRO-HD content.

Quote:
I see this as a major issue for people who work in cross platform environments.
Well, obviously Avid would have some advantages, being basically the only cross-platform editor. But Canopus maintains the MXF format the best. If someone's working with FCP though, perhaps Avid is the better PC choice because as I understand it, Avid can open and edit the Apple Quicktime DVCPRO-HD .mov files. I don't know whether Canopus can do that or not.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 02:08 AM   #22
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Sorry if I'm asking questions with obvious answers, but I want to know, based on what this thread discusses, what are the minimum requirements for a PC system running Avid or Canopus that will be capable of editing DVCPro HD. I'm not a professional, so I really am asking for the minimum. I don't even know how to get the footage from the P2 card to my PC!

And how much Hard Drive space will the video files take up? If 2 250GIG hard drives suits well enough for a couple of hours worth of HDV, would an upgrade be needed for this DVProHD footage?

Also, there's no mention of Premiere Pro (it's my favourite editor) - has Premiere missed the boat completely with DVProHD?
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Old December 30th, 2005, 03:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hewat
Sorry if I'm asking questions with obvious answers, but I want to know, based on what this thread discusses, what are the minimum requirements for a PC system running Avid or Canopus that will be capable of editing DVCPro HD.
Best to look at the company's websites and look at their minimum requirements. I know on the Apple platform it doesn't take much at all; an old 1.33ghz powerbook can do it.

Quote:
I don't even know how to get the footage from the P2 card to my PC!
Many, many ways. All of them much easier than logging and capturing tape! Probably the easiest way is to a laptop computer; you just plug the P2 card into the laptop and it shows up on your desktop as an external hard disk. Then just copy the files over. If going to a desktop you can get a card reader, or you can use the camera itself as a card reader. Just plug in the USB port and the camera will show up on your desktop as two external hard disks (one for each slot). Again, just copy the files over or, if you want, you could edit the files straight from the cards.

Also, you can plug a hard disk into the HVX and have it copy the files over to the hard disk, and then you just plug that hard disk into the computer and edit away.


Quote:
And how much Hard Drive space will the video files take up?
A minute per gigabyte for the heaviest-duty footage, 2.5 minutes per gigabyte for 720/24p.

Quote:
If 2 250GIG hard drives suits well enough for a couple of hours worth of HDV, would an upgrade be needed for this DVProHD footage?
No, two 250-gig drives would provide for 9 hours of source footage in 1080 mode, or around 25 hours of 720/24p footage!

Quote:
Also, there's no mention of Premiere Pro (it's my favourite editor) - has Premiere missed the boat completely with DVProHD?
Currently Premiere Pro has no support at all, although there are persistent rumors that a forthcoming version 2.0 may have support.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 03:52 AM   #24
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Wow!

Thanks for that!

I'm impressed! I had no idea about the USB from Camera to PC option, and I suspected that the requirements on the PC would be substantially higher than for regular HDV. Canopus and Avid recommend Dual Xeon processors for their software but is it safe to assume that Dual AMD Opterons will do just as good a job?

I had almost given in and bought a Z1... Perhaps I'll hold out even longer and see about this camera... I'm told it won't appear here in Australia until March '06 though...

Last edited by John Hewat; December 30th, 2005 at 04:40 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 04:25 AM   #25
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Here is the "HVX200carspassing1080_24p_jpeg.mov" 1080i60 clip, reverse-telecined and converted into Photo jpeg codec (1920x1080, 24p) for playback on PC and slow mac's: http://www.andersholck.com/HVX200car...0_24p_jpeg.mov
(It does have more compression noise than the original DVCPRO HD file. But plays smoothly on my old PowerBook)

Last edited by Anders Holck Petersen; December 30th, 2005 at 04:57 AM.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 04:44 AM   #26
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The link does not work.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 04:58 AM   #27
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The Canopus website describing Edius starts here:
http://www.canopus.com/products/nlesoftware.php

You can run Edius via firewire only or you can use one of the Canopus hardware options for alternative input/output options. You will need to read through the pages to see what each hardware package offers and to decide which, if any, is relevant to your needs.

The Broadcast bundle will be available (next week?) as an optional add on to EdiusPro3. It looks as though it will be a good value option. It includes DVCPro, DVCPro HD, P2, Varicam, XDCam and Windows Media support.
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Old December 30th, 2005, 04:59 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Niemann
The link does not work.
Fixed. (I pasted the filename from the finder in OSX, which was truncated)
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Old December 30th, 2005, 05:31 AM   #29
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Wow, i'm very impressed with the latest Kaku clips. The Bamboo clips along with the city shots have a very rich color and texture to them. Very nice. The performance of the HVX200 sofar, is good......

pappas
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Old December 30th, 2005, 05:37 AM   #30
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Michael,

I'm going for the night shooting for a bit soon.

Should I keep the gain to zero all the time? Or do you folks want to see the gain up for certain situation?
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