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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:45 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Pappas
For me, it's not to early. I have been at this long enough to gage pretty quickly a camera and format. I have filmed with the HVX200 for quite awhile, been to a filmout that only a handful in the world got see..
Well, yes... If you actually have had access to the HVX200, then you should be able to guage this! :)

Quote:
What I don't like is the massive Kool Aid talk.
Yes, but there's a lot of this with any of these new products and even current products. For a lot of people, this is their dream camera, initial footage looks impressive and the specs (on paper) seem amazing. They don't want to listen to or read something negative. It's just like people who have already purchased a new camera or computer and have a significant investment in that equipment... They can get terribly defensive when negative comments or even accurate critical observations are made in regards to their investment.

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I'm on a HVX200 order list, so I must like things about it to consider it. But I must remain in the middle and not become bias towards my judgment on any of these camera. I owe it to those that put trust in me to be honest, fair and unbiased. I won't betray that trust to anyone or to me.....
I think it's great having your opinions here and the opinions of others like Shannon. While he's happy with his XLH1 and rubbing our noses in it, he's made a lot of valid points here. But I think the "Kool Aid talk" won't really go away until a significant number of HVX200s are actually being used. And especially not until people form their own opinions after using the camera instead of looking at video shot by others in situations that may not replicate their environment or workflow.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:58 AM   #17
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Lot's of folks getting worked up about low light performance of HVX200 and noise.

Unless someone here has seen such tests with this camera, many of us, those of us that can see/play Kaku's source clips, only have that to go on.

Please realize Kaku is learning the particulars of this camera. Many shots look excelent. There seems to be noise issues in some shots but it may (or may not) be something solved as one develops a better understand of how to work with the camera. Many folks are tossing many things to Kaku to try. Doesn't leave much time to trouble shoot each issue.

One test might be to shoot under similar situation one might find at a dark night wedding reception or shooting a band in a darkly lit bar/club.

Gain up to Max (+12, +18?) at F1.6, maybe hot exposed spots only hit Zebra 70 at peak (short of pointing it at the light bulbs). Back off gain to see if there's a tolerable "sweet" spot.

Maybe compare this with 1/3" chip HDV cameras. One might use Sony PD-170 as an "optimal" 1/3" SD camera at same settings. Remember the HVX is a 1/3" HD variant camera, not 2/3" and not SD.

Kaku, tomorrow you must shoot a wedding reception and a band in the darkest club in Tokyo with 5 cameras slung over your shoulder or they'll be riots at DVInfo <said in jest of course>.

Kaku is already "dancing as fast as he can."

Yes there's cause for concern but one can't know for sure until one has thorough knowledge of the camera and does a methodical test.

Yes it's "too soon." Translation - the test hasn't been done yet to move me from "concern" to a definitive "issue" and then develop a means to deal with it if it is an issue or whether such results eliminates the camera for use in dark shoots.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 01:14 AM   #18
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This is directed at the forum users in general and not any individual/s in particular. It's a bit verbose, so bear with me:

As mentioned earlier, there's a ton of hype being heaped on the HVX prior to and during it's intial release. So be it. "Measurebators" abound on forums like this and that's fine, there's a place for those who enjoy cracking heads over finite tech specs. Bully for you guys. The endless debate over which thing is better is just that, endless, and you're welcome to keep the flame burning as far as I'm concerned.

However, there's one very important point that most seem to be missing here that needs to be addressed: For every piece of hardware created there is a perfect match-to-purpose aspect. Camera hardware is just like any other tool - you wouldn't use a Phillips head driver on a flat-head screw, would you? Just like in my primary business of commercial print still photography there is a "tool" that is selected based on what the job requirements are. If I have to create an image that's going to be a double-page spread at 300 dpi I'm not going to use my D2X, I'll grab my 4x5 body and shoot chrome.

If you really know how to use your hardware you can create amazing imagery by utilizing knowledge of lighting, exposure, composition etc. etc. regardless what you're shooting or editing with. Sure, some cameras have features that others don't, that doesn't mean they're better but more that they are optimized for certain types of work.

As an example: I've never been a fan of the Canon XL series of cameras, in fact I can't stand them. However when I was producing my first demo reel that's all I had available to me and I learned to make the best of what it could do. I used my knowledge of lighting, color and composition and that demo has had lavish praise ever since. Those in the industry who have seen the demo are surprised when I tell them what it was shot with, and to be honest, so am I now that I've been able to use other cameras myself.

But, times and technology have changed siginificantly and I've chosen the HVX for my new project. I didn't choose it because I'm loyal to Panansonic or because I bought into the hype, I chose it because it had very specific features that I absolutely need for my work, period. The Sony Z1U (which I just sold) could'nt do the job, and neither could the JVC HD100U nor could the Canon H1. Those are all great cameras in their own right and can and will make great images - in the hands of those who know how to maximize their individual capabilities!

Obviously the more knowledge you have on any product will help you make an intelligent purchase choice - IF you have enough information to make certain assumptions. We're all anxious to see what the HVX will do and some of us like myself have already made our choice based on features alone and less on actual camera output.

My point is this: If you're considering the HVX but aren't sure then wait for those of us who've ordered it to get it, test it and share our info. Otherwise any assumptions made now could be grossly over or under-rated.

Consider your camera choice as picking the right tool for the job. If the camera does what YOU need it to do, who cares if Tom, Dick or Harry doesn't like it? Get it?
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Old January 4th, 2006, 02:08 AM   #19
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I'd like to echo Craig and Robert - similar theme.

Horses for courses here - use what's right for the budget, the workflow and the delivery format.

Hell, this is a fixed lens 1/3" ccd cam ( you don't know this, heh) - all manufacturers in this end of the market HAVE to make compromises. There is no holy grail.

fwiw - From what I've seen - it looks good. Not "omfg great" but solid good.

I have been lucky enough to see some test footage from a Varicam and the HVX side by side on a well lit set with pro lighting. (Web only - compressed to H.264).
The varicam was set up by a tech for 20 mins and yup, you guessed it, the guys pretty well pulled the HVX out and shot. So it's an unfair comparison - but the little HVX was freak'n close - damn close. <subjective - HELL YES>

No noise here, folks. A tweak or two on the gamma knee/s and I reckon they would have colour matched the two really well. Yes - you'll notice the difference in a wide shot between the two. Tight in for b cam cuts, I doubt it. edit: well, you guys would but no one else could, IMNSHO.
Sooooo - there you go. More food for thought.

And no - I'm really sorry, I'd love to put the clip up - but I'm not able to do so. Sorry.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 04:25 AM   #20
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I've been very happy with what i've seen from the HVX, very warm filmic and richly colored footage. As for the XL H1, it still looks like video, they just haven't figured it out over there in canon land. Even with the low noise factor of the H1, the HVX offers variable frame rates, a solid/tapeless recording format and a push toward the future of affordable indie film making. I'll take my noisey HVX over a flat and overly sharp H1 anyday.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 06:29 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Pappas
For me, it's not to early. I have been at this long enough to gage pretty quickly a camera and format. I have filmed with the HVX200 for quite awhile, been to a filmout that only a handful in the world got to see..

What I don't like is the massive Kool Aid talk.
I couldn't agree more -- especially the claims that DVCPRO HD is "better" than HDV. There are many who have found weakness in this now old DVC codec before the HVX200 was even announced.

Part of the Kool Aid is the passive acceptance of Panasonic's refusal to provide information on the CCDs. I've been covering Panasonic camera's for almost 15 years and CCD specs have always been provided. Moreover, whenever the numbers are better than their past cameras or any competitor's camera, they have marketed this point. AS THEY SHOULD!

Suddenly they don't provide specs. There is only one logical conclusion -- these specs are not good. Either they too clearly indicate that they limit the possible quality of HD video -- most likely they undersample the image in comparision to the DVCPRO HD recording format (which itself is an undersampling codec at both 1080i and 720p) OR they feel they are worse than their 1080i (Canon) and 720p (JVC) competition.

CCD specs are not a propritary "process" like Canons 24F. They are they basic numbers by which cameras have -- fairly or unfairly -- been judged.

Of course, I expect someone at Panasonic is already typing the word SPECULATION. Don't bother! By not releasing the numbers you force any comment on your CCDs -- by definition -- to be "speculation." Which in turn, very cleverly, let's you dismiss any negative comments as "unsupported speculation."

Not to leave Canon free of guilt -- their claim that they will not disclose the nature of 24F beause it would reveal a "propritarty process" seems to have been handled here in a Cool Aid manner too. To tell a customer, if the SUV they buy either has 2-wheel or 4-wheel drive in not revealing anything about a PROCESS. It is only a critical FACT about what they are buying. A fact they have the right to know.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; January 4th, 2006 at 07:34 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 07:06 AM   #22
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I for one would love to know the CCD specs. It is important. If Panasonic are using low res CCD's and upscaling for 1080 then any noise from the CCD's is going to be upscaled too. Could this be why all the mosquito noise that seems to be apparent in the dark areas of the HVX images seems to stick out so much?? Any image scaling may not be apparent on first generation footage, but what will it look like after a couple of generations or after dubbing to another format that may be sampled or scaled in a different manner??
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:25 AM   #23
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I know there will be a fair review showing the (in)possibilities of the HVX200, but the (3) reactions I saw from delivered cams are showing grain in the blacks, no intuitive interface and showing image softness. You can say that now, it is 2006. Sure I keep my eyes open .

Generally I find people being very biased in favor of Panasonic, holding the bad things away, praising the goods, if it is another brand they do it the other way.

As a unbiased person I think this is strange marketing behavior. But hey, I dont like the Apple or 'Steve Jobs is God' way of thinking either. Be realistic.

The expectations are high, Panasonic made them that way, carefully giving information that will hype the product and they had some right to do so, the DVX100 is a good product. But not showing the ccd specs (we will spread the info out as soon as we know it, the hole world around on every site and video magazine) is strange behavior. Sites that are directed to users in a way you do not really know what is marketing and what is not, hurts the free internet community. If you criticize the Pana brand you are in trouble.

For me, this looks like a good next camera to shoot on, but I will take a good look at what it is. How it works in daily work, on street, in editing and backup. Ill read all what is going on before the cam will come to Europe.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 09:52 AM   #24
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Why would any professional preorder any camera without throughly testing it in real world shooting situations. It boggles the mind that someone is loose enough with their cash that they can slap down either a big deposit or pay in full (a la B&H) for something they haven't tried. I have to assume that the people who do it are either loaded with money, or have a specific shoot in mind. The specific shoot in mind excuse doesn't make sense because how does one know what a camera will do when they haven't shot with it? For that matter, they don't even know when they are going to get delivery.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 11:29 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Mintzer
Why would any professional preorder any camera without throughly testing it in real world shooting situations. It boggles the mind that someone is loose enough with their cash that they can slap down either a big deposit or pay in full (a la B&H) for something they haven't tried. I have to assume that the people who do it are either loaded with money, or have a specific shoot in mind. The specific shoot in mind excuse doesn't make sense because how does one know what a camera will do when they haven't shot with it? For that matter, they don't even know when they are going to get delivery.
I'm sure some of you are in big cities and have the luxury of going and trying a "professional" camera in a working and environment and thus determining if it is "everything" you need. I leave in Ohio and I'm near Cleveland and Akron and only 1.5 hours from Pittsburgh, and I have never been able to find pro gear to try. In light of that I have purchased all 5 of my cameras in the last 12 years via mail order. Canon A1, Canon XL1, DVX100, Canon XL2 and now the HVX200. At least in this day and age I have sites like this to read reviews and honest opinions on the equipment that I buy.

Now obviously I am not in the "high end" pro realm. I do shoot professionally and get paid for it but I don't spend $50K on my cameras. BUt just the same I feel a lot of people have to rely on reading reviews on-line or magazines and buying what they think will work best for them. We can't always get access to this equpiment for in-person evaluation.

Having said all this you should "buy" from a reliable dealer who will give you your money back or at least allow you to get a different camera if the one you buy turns out to not be suited to you.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:34 PM   #26
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when everyone was lynching HDV cameras, that it produces horrible artifacts, that its just a consumer format..etc back in May/June... where was the civility? did they all own a HDV camera?

I wonder why when it comes to Panasonic everyone is hush hush?

So whoever has the camera, please focus on the images it produces & not the menus,formats, codecs, p2 etc.... and I donno what Chris means by usabilty forum... (I am a usabilty anaylst) - but I don't want to know how user friendly HVX is...

i just want to know how good of an HD image it produces... does it have noise in natural lighted scenes...
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Old January 4th, 2006, 12:40 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Part of the Kool Aid is the passive acceptance of Panasonic's refusal to provide information on the CCDs. I've been covering Panasonic camera's for almost 15 years and CCD specs have always been provided. Moreover, whenever the numbers are better than their past cameras or any competitor's camera, they have marketed this point. AS THEY SHOULD!
Have u noticed -
whenever it suits them they talk about numbers (DVCPRO v/s HDV, bitrates, 4:2:2 color space), and whenever it doesnt suit them...its all about the image (CCD Specs, Lens..etc)
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Old January 4th, 2006, 03:01 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Marty Hudzik
I'm sure some of you are in big cities and have the luxury of going and trying a "professional" camera in a working and environment and thus determining if it is "everything" you need. I leave in Ohio and I'm near Cleveland and Akron and only 1.5 hours from Pittsburgh, and I have never been able to find pro gear to try. In light of that I have purchased all 5 of my cameras in the last 12 years via mail order. Canon A1, Canon XL1, DVX100, Canon XL2 and now the HVX200. At least in this day and age I have sites like this to read reviews and honest opinions on the equipment that I buy.

Now obviously I am not in the "high end" pro realm. I do shoot professionally and get paid for it but I don't spend $50K on my cameras. BUt just the same I feel a lot of people have to rely on reading reviews on-line or magazines and buying what they think will work best for them. We can't always get access to this equpiment for in-person evaluation.

Having said all this you should "buy" from a reliable dealer who will give you your money back or at least allow you to get a different camera if the one you buy turns out to not be suited to you.
I understand your issue but it still doesn't make sense to me. Even if they don't have access to a camera, why don't they wait until it has been released and get feedback from professionals who actually have the gear? Anyhow, I'm amazed at the whole concept and I am beginning to think that maybe it has more to do with marketing cash and less to do with reality.

By the way, if you are going to spend 10,000 for a camera and accessories, a cheap flight to a city that has a store that has the camera might be in order. It is probably worth the investment.
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Old January 4th, 2006, 03:38 PM   #29
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Well, I'm going to adopt the old fashioned approach and rent one for a day or so ...
This whole "order and pay" thingy over the 'net sight unseen sends my wallet into spasms. Maybe it's hungry ... ?
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Old January 4th, 2006, 04:51 PM   #30
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dear all,

is there a way to have a test drive from a one subjective pro DOP to take the 4Cams and test them:

01) same resolution chart.
02) same low light.
03) same day light
04) same .......

then post.....

something like :
www.tomshardware.com for new hardware and benchmarkes.....

thanks,
Amr
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