HVX200 and Vegas at DVinfo.net

Jeremy Rumas · January 3rd, 2006, 10:35 PM

Hello,

I'm a PC user and currently use Vegas 5.0 for editing. I'm considering getting the HVX200. Can someone please clarify for me what I can and can't do using this program with the HVX200? In the new file menu in Vegas I see an HD1080-24P option. This is the main setting I would want to use with the HVX200, so will I be ok here? I am also interested in shooting at some higher frame rates for slow motion. Some insight would be greatly appreciated.

thanks,

Jeremy Rumas

Shannon Rawls · January 3rd, 2006, 10:47 PM

You want the Bad news or you want the Bad news?

- ShannonRawls.com

Chris Hurd · January 3rd, 2006, 11:39 PM

Vegas is a Sony product, and since Sony and Panasonic are direct competitors, I would not count too much on seeing any support for the type of MXF file that Panasonic uses for the HVX200. There are several different flavors of MXF files. The HVX200 writes one kind of MXF file to the P2 card. Sony uses the MXF format as well in some of their gear, I'm not sure but I think it's a different version. I'd be very surprised to see Vegas supporting DVCPRO HD. You might want to consider changing your NLE application, or changing cameras. Hope this helps,

Jeremy Rumas · January 4th, 2006, 12:24 AM

Shannon and Chris,

Thanks for the...bad news. Bummer. Seeing as how Vegas even recognizes and fully supports my Cannon XL2, I hadn't planned for this. Is there any PC program in the same price range as Vegas which will work well with the HVX200? Or any in the near future?

-Jeremy

Jeremy Rumas · January 4th, 2006, 12:49 AM

OK OK I get it. Wow. This sure stalls my plans. Is there seriously no affordable NLE option for me if I stick with my PC(which I am sort of stuck with due to all the other software I have for it), even lets say looking further into the year?

Jeremy

Jeff Kilgroe · January 4th, 2006, 12:58 AM

Edius Broadcast has an MSRP of $995 and it fully supports the Op-Atom MXF format and workflow and has excellent real-time DVCPRO[HD] support. However, it is lacking a lot of features found in other NLE systems like Vegas or Avid... It's a newer product and it may or may not fit your needs. You can take a DV and HDV capable version of Edius for a 30 day test drive by going to www.canopus.com The Broadcast version is the same software, but also adds support for DVCPRO (25/50/HD100) and a few other codecs and frame rates. My take on it is that it's an excellent product, but lacks a lot of "creative" editing features... You'll just have to try it for yourself.

Avid's Xpress Pro HD will also work with the camera and can be had for around $1500. However, its MXF support is buggy and incomplete and their DV100/DVCPRO support is also a bit flakey and incapable of real-time performance. Neat, eh? Check out the Avid area over at dvxuser.com as there's a couple threads discussing Avid with the available HVX200 footage. In Xpress, you would essentially have to load the DVCPROHD clips and then convert them to QNxHD (Avid's own HD codec) and then work with them, but this isn't very pretty and IMO offers nothing over the next solution...

You can also go with DV Film Maker and use it to open MXF files and transcode from DVCPROHD to other Vegas-friendly formats. This is probably the cheapest solution for us Vegas users right now. But not all that convinient, yet still a workable solution if you need to be cost-effective and hold out for a better PC solution.

Les Dit · January 4th, 2006, 04:33 AM

One of the reasons you won't see some software NLE related companies supporting this camera is that Panasonic isn't releasing the code for the HD codec. They are asking $50K for the codec source.
You would think that they would offer it up more readily to help promote the camera on more platforms.
-Les

Jeff Kilgroe · January 4th, 2006, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dit

One of the reasons you won't see some software NLE related companies supporting this camera is that Panasonic isn't releasing the code for the HD codec. They are asking $50K for the codec source.
You would think that they would offer it up more readily to help promote the camera on more platforms.
-Les

If that's true, then Panasonic is being plain stupid - especially now that they have a camera in the <$6K range that uses the codec. What about format specifications? Are those costly too? Is it possible for software developers to obtain the details and build their own compatible codec from the ground up without paying through the nose?

Barry Green · January 4th, 2006, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

What about format specifications? Are those costly too? Is it possible for software developers to obtain the details and build their own compatible codec from the ground up without paying through the nose?

The format is published as (I believe) SMPTE 370M? Canopus implemented it years ago as Canopus HD, before they came out with their Canopus HQ codec. MainConcept is reportedly producing their own reverse-engineered version as well.

Les Dit · January 4th, 2006, 02:38 PM

Yes, you can write your own implementation of the codec, but that's a considerable amount of work. The question is why Panasonic is limiting the number of companies supporting the camera in their software packages? There must be some marketing strategy going on.
-Les

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe

If that's true, then Panasonic is being plain stupid - especially now that they have a camera in the <$6K range that uses the codec. What about format specifications? Are those costly too? Is it possible for software developers to obtain the details and build their own compatible codec from the ground up without paying through the nose?

Jeff Kilgroe · January 4th, 2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Dit

Yes, you can write your own implementation of the codec, but that's a considerable amount of work. The question is why Panasonic is limiting the number of companies supporting the camera in their software packages? There must be some marketing strategy going on.
-Les

If that's the case, which it is, I found all the SMPTE IDs... Not that I'm going to try and write a codec, although it wouldn't be that big of a challenge if I had the time and another good developer to dedicate to it.

Also, DVCPRO (25/50 AND HD) is supported by SGI IRIX and there is full source for their codec in the IRIX Developer DIVO module so there's a reference to work from - it's GNU licensed anyway, so someone could actually use that source to build off of, but it would be no good for building a commercial product...

So it's not like DVCPROHD is this hugely guarded secret or costs any more money to implement than other codecs like HDCAM or XDCAM. It doesn't appear that Panasonic is really treating DVCPROHD any differently than Sony does with HDCAM formats. And I don't see how they are limiting any number of developers. They just don't have the same marketing savvy or they're approaching these software developers in the wrong way. I don't know, but DVCPRO has just been largely ignored by most of the mainstream NLE developers.

Don Donatello · January 4th, 2006, 06:27 PM

IMO i would not count Vegas OUT supporting P2 type files .. and from where i sit it doesn't appear to be that many other NLE support it native .. i would say by spring there will be better support for P2 MXF from all NLE's .. look how long it took Avid/FCP to get native HDV support ... based on Vegas history over past years it tends to support more then other NLE for TL playback/support ...

now i do find it a bit hard to swallow that many here would bet on the RED camera coming to market that is "affordable for the persons that post here !!! i'll put my $$ on Vegas supporting P2 type files long before any RED is seen ...

Chris Hurd · January 4th, 2006, 06:38 PM

Well, affordability is a relative term. I'm sure that you, me and Terrence McCarthy all have different definitions of what affordable means. But RED is real and they will be presenting at NAB. The developer is very serious about it, otherwise I wouldn't have opened a forum for it. I do agree that it'll be awhile, if ever, before we see Vegas supporting Panasonic P2. Sony and Panasonic have always been on opposite sides of the fence.

Jeff Kilgroe · January 4th, 2006, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Donatello

now i do find it a bit hard to swallow that many here would bet on the RED camera coming to market that is "affordable for the persons that post here !!! i'll put my $$ on Vegas supporting P2 type files long before any RED is seen ...

If RED comes to market and does 90% of what they claim it will and it's at the same price of a Sony F950U CineAlta or Digital Arri, then I would call it "affordable". People dreaming that RED will be under $25K (let alone $110K) are doing just that... dreaming.

Craig Seeman · January 4th, 2006, 07:19 PM

The Think Secret rumor site mentions Red at about $200,000. They also mention another product in addition to Final Cut Express, Final Cut Pro family. They say there will be a Final Cut Extreme at $10,000.

January 3rd, 2006, 10:35 PM	#1
Jeremy Rumas New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago, IL U.S.A. Posts: 15	HVX200 and Vegas Hello, I'm a PC user and currently use Vegas 5.0 for editing. I'm considering getting the HVX200. Can someone please clarify for me what I can and can't do using this program with the HVX200? In the new file menu in Vegas I see an HD1080-24P option. This is the main setting I would want to use with the HVX200, so will I be ok here? I am also interested in shooting at some higher frame rates for slow motion. Some insight would be greatly appreciated. thanks, Jeremy Rumas

January 3rd, 2006, 11:39 PM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Vegas is a Sony product, and since Sony and Panasonic are direct competitors, I would not count too much on seeing any support for the type of MXF file that Panasonic uses for the HVX200. There are several different flavors of MXF files. The HVX200 writes one kind of MXF file to the P2 card. Sony uses the MXF format as well in some of their gear, I'm not sure but I think it's a different version. I'd be very surprised to see Vegas supporting DVCPRO HD. You might want to consider changing your NLE application, or changing cameras. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2006, 12:24 AM	#4
Jeremy Rumas New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago, IL U.S.A. Posts: 15	ouch that hurts Shannon and Chris, Thanks for the...bad news. Bummer. Seeing as how Vegas even recognizes and fully supports my Cannon XL2, I hadn't planned for this. Is there any PC program in the same price range as Vegas which will work well with the HVX200? Or any in the near future? -Jeremy

January 4th, 2006, 12:58 AM	#6
Jeff Kilgroe Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Golden, CO Posts: 681	Edius Broadcast has an MSRP of $995 and it fully supports the Op-Atom MXF format and workflow and has excellent real-time DVCPRO[HD] support. However, it is lacking a lot of features found in other NLE systems like Vegas or Avid... It's a newer product and it may or may not fit your needs. You can take a DV and HDV capable version of Edius for a 30 day test drive by going to www.canopus.com The Broadcast version is the same software, but also adds support for DVCPRO (25/50/HD100) and a few other codecs and frame rates. My take on it is that it's an excellent product, but lacks a lot of "creative" editing features... You'll just have to try it for yourself. Avid's Xpress Pro HD will also work with the camera and can be had for around $1500. However, its MXF support is buggy and incomplete and their DV100/DVCPRO support is also a bit flakey and incapable of real-time performance. Neat, eh? Check out the Avid area over at dvxuser.com as there's a couple threads discussing Avid with the available HVX200 footage. In Xpress, you would essentially have to load the DVCPROHD clips and then convert them to QNxHD (Avid's own HD codec) and then work with them, but this isn't very pretty and IMO offers nothing over the next solution... You can also go with DV Film Maker and use it to open MXF files and transcode from DVCPROHD to other Vegas-friendly formats. This is probably the cheapest solution for us Vegas users right now. But not all that convinient, yet still a workable solution if you need to be cost-effective and hold out for a better PC solution. __________________ - Jeff Kilgroe - Applied Visual Technologies \| DarkScience - www.darkscience.com

January 4th, 2006, 04:33 AM	#7
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Panasonic wants a lot of cash for the codec One of the reasons you won't see some software NLE related companies supporting this camera is that Panasonic isn't releasing the code for the HD codec. They are asking $50K for the codec source. You would think that they would offer it up more readily to help promote the camera on more platforms. -Les

January 3rd, 2006, 10:47 PM	#2
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	You want the Bad news or you want the Bad news? - ShannonRawls.com

January 4th, 2006, 12:49 AM	#5
Jeremy Rumas New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chicago, IL U.S.A. Posts: 15	OK OK I get it. Wow. This sure stalls my plans. Is there seriously no affordable NLE option for me if I stick with my PC(which I am sort of stuck with due to all the other software I have for it), even lets say looking further into the year? Jeremy

January 4th, 2006, 06:27 PM	#12
Don Donatello Hawaiian Shirt Mogul Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: northern cailfornia Posts: 1,261	IMO i would not count Vegas OUT supporting P2 type files .. and from where i sit it doesn't appear to be that many other NLE support it native .. i would say by spring there will be better support for P2 MXF from all NLE's .. look how long it took Avid/FCP to get native HDV support ... based on Vegas history over past years it tends to support more then other NLE for TL playback/support ... now i do find it a bit hard to swallow that many here would bet on the RED camera coming to market that is "affordable for the persons that post here !!! i'll put my $$ on Vegas supporting P2 type files long before any RED is seen ...

January 4th, 2006, 06:38 PM	#13
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Well, affordability is a relative term. I'm sure that you, me and Terrence McCarthy all have different definitions of what affordable means. But RED is real and they will be presenting at NAB. The developer is very serious about it, otherwise I wouldn't have opened a forum for it. I do agree that it'll be awhile, if ever, before we see Vegas supporting Panasonic P2. Sony and Panasonic have always been on opposite sides of the fence. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

January 4th, 2006, 07:19 PM	#15
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	The Think Secret rumor site mentions Red at about $200,000. They also mention another product in addition to Final Cut Express, Final Cut Pro family. They say there will be a Final Cut Extreme at $10,000.