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Old January 6th, 2006, 12:45 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
I will know the answers to most this stuff in the next 6 months... looks like I will be doing multiple projects with both the HVX and XLH... and at least one of those will include footage shot by an XLH and recorded over the HD-SDI to a 1200A DVCproHD deck... For the record, the DVCproHD codec is FAR from perfect. I have found that I have to crush the blacks or they get VERY noisy, worse than DV!



ash =o)
I think that DVCProHD codec is pretty good for HVX or H1 cameras with their CCDs and DSP.
And I'm happy that Panasonic decided to implement this codec in HVX.
If it is not enough for some kind of work ("codec is FAR from perfect") then I think that H1 is not enough too.
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:05 PM   #47
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Laco,
DVCProHD, HDV, and uncompressed all have very different strengths and different weakness, so it probably isn't quite right to say that if one is not right for a purpose, then another isn't either. Very exciting times when many of us are now able to choose amongst High Definition solutions!
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:32 PM   #48
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2 year old camera close in resolution!

Just for fun, I hand held shot the chart with my JVC HD10 .
It's resolution looks maybe just a little lower than the HVX !
Again, this was hand held, the chart was on an 8.5x11 printout.

HD10 at 720p http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/jvc-HD10-chart.jpg

JVC HD10 at 1920 size: http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/j...-1920chart.jpg

and the HVX: http://home.arcor.de/martin.doppelba...rts/0088YP.png

Enjoy! ;)

-Les
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:32 PM   #49
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I wanted to say that if somebody is not satisfied with DVCProHD compression then he has to look at better camera than HVX or H1 too.
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:46 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Dit
Just for fun, I hand held shot the chart with my JVC HD10 .
It's resolution looks maybe just a little lower than the HVX !
Again, this was hand held, the chart was on an 8.5x11 printout.

HD10 at 720p http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/jvc-HD10-chart.jpg

JVC HD10 at 1920 size: http://home.earthlink.net/~lesd/hd/j...-1920chart.jpg

and the HVX: http://home.arcor.de/martin.doppelba...rts/0088YP.png

Enjoy! ;)

-Les
HD10 resolution on this chart is 600Hx450V.

Could you mount the camera on a tripod?
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:54 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laco Zamba
I think that DVCProHD codec is pretty good for HVX or H1 cameras with their CCDs and DSP.
And I'm happy that Panasonic decided to implement this codec in HVX.
If it is not enough for some kind of work ("codec is FAR from perfect") then I think that H1 is not enough too.

No need to defend Panny, if you read my post I will be using the XLH1 into a Panny DVCproHD deck. I am currently working on a project shot on a Varicam. Interviews on a black background and once you tweak ANYTHING the blacks get VERY noisy. I am doing an offline in DVCproHD and recapturing uncompressed for the final product. I was just surprised to see so much noise...



ash =o)
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Old January 6th, 2006, 03:57 PM   #52
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Well, it was at 1/250 sec exposure, but I guess the hand held could have screwed with the focus a bit. I'll try to shoot it again this weekend.

So what did you think of the much poo poo'ed HD10 ? It can still hold it's own on res, but it still has all the non-manual controls issues, and non optimal mpeg2. But you can get one on Ebay for < $1600, I'm sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr Marusek
HD10 resolution on this chart is 600Hx450V.

Could you mount the camera on a tripod?
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Old January 7th, 2006, 07:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Dit
Just for fun, I hand held shot the chart with my JVC HD10 .
It's resolution looks maybe just a little lower than the HVX !
Amazing -- 600x500 for about $2K and 600x600 for $10K.

But worse, the HVX is grossly over sharpened -- look at the wheel outline.

-----------------

However, I've been shooting with my JVC HD1 in India. Once again I'm blown away be its "filmic" color which IMHO is the reason I and others liked the DVX100 so much. The HVX has the same great color.

Which leads me to conclude that for many -- the HVX's great color and 720p60 and 720p24 operation will make it a winner if/when there is a cost effective way to record. Sorry, P2 still makes no sense for general use.

---------------------

The CCDs will be an issue only when operating at 1080i.

It's not clear why Panasonic even bothered with 1080i since it involves under sampled CCDs recorded to an under sampled recording format. In fact, it's not clear why anyone would shoot such 1080i when they have the ability to record 720p60.

------------------

Lastly, these long passionate "conflicts" seem to occur with the introduction of every camera. I remember the brutal criticism of the JVC HDV cameras' "lack of exposure control." Shooting in India under all sorts of light conditions, I realize how EZ it is to control exposure. So EZ, I'm revising my JVC Guide -- making it much simpler. The first version was long because I wasted space responding to all the criticism. It was a "defensive" document.

I suspect that in a few weeks folks will have sorted out the CCD rez issues. And, HVX lovers can all become less definsive.

Of course, all this would all be much simpler if Panasonic had provided the necessary specifications to understand the camera.

Speaking of specs -- what are the sensitivity specs?
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Old January 7th, 2006, 07:28 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Amazing -- 600x500 for about $2K and 600x600 for $10K.

But worse, the HVX is grossly over sharpened -- look at the wheel outline.

Speaking of specs -- what are the sensitivity specs?
The JVC HD10 was hand-held.

3 lux on HVX
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Old January 7th, 2006, 09:15 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen
Amazing -- 600x500 for about $2K and 600x600 for $10K.
But worse, the HVX is grossly over sharpened -- look at the wheel outline.
With fast check just by eye the chart shot with details -5 shows about same resolving power and no sharpening.

I'm mostly amazed by the poor horizontal resolution. You get that out of every 16:9 sd camera.
I just wonder if there's any difference with real resolution between 720 and 1080 recording modes?
And if 1080 mode is always reducing vertical resolution to remove flickering from 1080i displays?

20% increase in resolution and the camera gets called hd instead of sd. This industry is sad...

Well, I think I still have to buy it, because it's the only progressive 16:9 1/3" sd camera after all. (XL2 has smaller area for video in the imagers.)
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Old January 7th, 2006, 09:34 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Toke Lahti
20% increase in resolution and the camera gets called hd instead of sd. This industry is sad...
Remove the two back doors on a Cadillac, and it's now a Sports Car.
So I wouldn't necessarilly call it sad.

And why are we even using the hand-held shaking shots from a HD10 as any type comparison? Joke or not? That shouldn't have even been posted, because it's now going to confuse people to think that they should get an HD10 on eBay over an HVX-200 to make their short film....I know it's hard to comprehend, but TRUST ME, it can/will happen. C'mon guys, think. Just think of how many idiots work at your job that you can't beleive got the position they have.....yea, it's like that. *smile*
Do you realize how many people come to this website to help make purchasing decisions? Everybody is not as smart as you are. I know it's hard to understand that, but there are allot of sheep out there who will believe anything..AND NO, they will not go any further in research then this one thread of discussion.

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Old January 7th, 2006, 03:55 PM   #57
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Rant

I posted the quick , handheld JVC HD10 chart because I wanted to make a point. "The Emperor's New Clothes"

These camcorder companies are so lame that in 2 years they have hardly made any progress in terms of real HD resolution. Many of them are protecting expensive 'pro' cameras with 5 figure price tags.
Look at the still camera market. That market grows at a much more expected rate in image quality. Don't let Sony and Matsushita lull you into thinking that the image sensors are like diamonds in price. That's BS.

These companies do not have the best interest for the filmmaker as their primary goal. They want to tie you into their product line, their P2 cards, their expensive tape decks, etc.
The Japanese have a saying: "Business is war".
In the next 2 years, they will be whalloped by non-video derived bayer cameras from some smaller companies. Think 'mini-origin' . Nothing to do with Sony or Canon or Matsushita. More to do with Seagate, Intel, and some industrial sensor companies that are not into the cartel. And some very smart Codec people ;)
-Les

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls
Remove the two back doors on a Cadillac, and it's now a Sports Car.
So I wouldn't necessarilly call it sad.

And why are we even using the hand-held shaking shots from a HD10 as any type comparison? Joke or not? That shouldn't have even been posted, because it's now going to confuse people to think that they should get an HD10 on eBay over an HVX-200 to make their short film....I know it's hard to comprehend, but TRUST ME, it can/will happen.


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Old January 7th, 2006, 04:24 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Les Dit
I posted the quick , handheld JVC HD10 chart because I wanted to make a point. "The Emperor's New Clothes"

These camcorder companies are so lame that in 2 years they have hardly made any progress in terms of real HD resolution. Many of them are protecting expensive 'pro' cameras with 5 figure price tags.
Look at Canon. Unlike Sony and Matsushita it does not make its own CCD's and its HD camera resolve the most. It produces true 24 fps rate, unlike Sony. The Canon XL2 resolution is only somewhat less than Panasonic's HVX resolution.

Sony and Matsushita have cornered the market and other companies are filling the vacuum that they created. If Sony could develop 25 Mbps DV codec/tramsport 10 years ago, it does not make any sense not to progress beyond 25 if the resolution is now nearly 5x higher (HDV).

It took Sony about 3-1/2 years to increase CineAlta's 175 Mbps rate to 880 Mbps in their CineAlta SR portable deck, but in 10 years they could not go beyond 25 Mbps with DV/HDV. Does it make sense?
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Old January 7th, 2006, 04:42 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls
<snip>
And why are we even using the hand-held shaking shots from a HD10 as any type comparison? Joke or not? That shouldn't have even been posted, because it's now going to confuse people to think that they should get an HD10 on eBay over an HVX-200 to make their short film....I know it's hard to comprehend, but TRUST ME, it can/will happen. C'mon guys, think.<snip>
Wait, you're joking right? I'm a pretty nice person, but if someone really has 10K ready to spend on an HD cam and buys the HD10 now instead of the HVX based on that rez chart.. well, come on now. Really, not to sound mean, but if a person did as you described, they'd be technically so inept that the likelyhood of them producing anything watchable with any camcorder is almost zero. In fact, I dare say such an individual would indeed be lucky to purchase the HD10. They've just wasted 2 grand instead of 6. I repeat, I'm not trying to be mean, its just that shooting compelling video is incredibly difficult and if someone doesn't know the difference between a 30P MEPG2 based 1CCD two thousand dollar camcorder and an HVX with DVCPROHD, 24P, Selectable frame rates, etc... and then goes and makes a purchase decision with such little knowledge.. Man, we just can't protect such an individual from bad decisions by including/excluding specific rez charts on an internet forum. People are responsible for how they spend their money, not us.

And if they really are very talented, hey, they'll produce a great piece with that HD10!
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Old January 7th, 2006, 04:50 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr Marusek
<snip>
It took Sony about 3-1/2 years to increase CineAlta's 175 Mbps rate to 880 Mbps in their CineAlta SR portable deck, but in 10 years they could not go beyond 25 Mbps with DV/HDV. Does it make sense?
Actually it does make sense. That 25mbps rate is there because its the amount of data a readily available and cheap DV tape drive records. By using currently available hardware (DV transports) and combining them with very efficient MPEG2 based recording Sony has been able to drastically reduce the R&D and manufacturing costs of their first batch of consumer/prosumer HD cams. The result is that they've sold a TON of Z1s, FX1s and probably a bunch of HC1s.

Both the development of the CineAlta and HDV camcorders has been in response to market forces. I'm sure if Sony thought they'd sell as many CineAltas with 175mbps rates they would not have bumped it to 880 in such a short period.

We don't have to like 25mbps HD camcorders, but they certainly make sense.
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