No sound recorded or firewire output when 720p24N or 30N is used? at DVinfo.net

Shannon Rawls · January 6th, 2006, 05:10 PM

I was wondering why I didn't hear much audio on Kaku's clips.

So I'm skimming through the new HVX-200 manual and I get to page 35. It explains NATIVE recording (which is the one that these NLE can understand right now). In section #4 it says:
●No signals are output from the 1394 terminal during recording or recording standby in the native modes.
●Sound is not recorded. However sound will be recorded when the same frame rate is used for both recording and playback.

Is that correct? So you mean to tell me i get no audio recorded & no firewire output in 24N or 30N?

Ok, lets me make sure I got this straight....

1. In order to take advantage of recording OVERCRANKING & UNDERCRANKING (slow and fast motion) I must use the "N" native mode only.
2. In order to take advantage of recording only the effective frames and saving P2 card space, I must use the "N" native mode only

However, in doing so, I cannot record any audio or get an output signal through firewire to record on my laptop. Dude, I must have someting mixed up.

I can't record slow-motion footage to my laptop??
I can't record audio when doing slow or fast motion??

If this is true, then why was this never mentioned before? Am I the only one who thinks this is extremely important? I MUST record sound in order to do slow-motion lipsync scenes. The same framerate naturally won't be used for playback as it was for recording. That renders the feature useless if I do that.

Barry, please explain it to me..

Also.....it says there is no slow motion or fast motion recording in 1080p? That only works in 720p? Is this true as well?
I also found out the camera only records 23.98 frame rate and not solid 24. That's why it won't work in Avid XPress Pro HD. *sad face*

- ShannonRawls.com

Mathieu Ghekiere · January 6th, 2006, 05:17 PM

I don't know the answer on the other questions, but I think it has been mentioned a lot before: under or overcranking is only possible in 720p, not in 1080p...

Gary McClurg · January 6th, 2006, 05:30 PM

From the beginning Panasonic said you could shoot different frames rates only in 720...

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 05:39 PM

Shannon,

You can do slow and fast motion to your laptop out the firewire, but it will not be in "native" mode. Native modes only work to P2, but you don't lose anything. You just have to be in the regual 24p or 24pa or whatever mode and then what shoots out the firewire is always embedded the same 100mbs stream regardess of 24 fps or 60 fps. So you will never get only active frames going out the firewire. You'll always get flagged frames that need to be removed through a frame converter or pulldown (like with the Varicam). All available frame rates are available out the firewire port, they will just be imbedded into a non-native stream.

If you record to a laptop or self-powered external drive, you will get 100mbs period. No such thing as saving space by shooting in 24p.

So in answer to your statements. Statement #1 is incorrect. Statement #2 is correct.

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 05:55 PM

And the variable rates are only in 720. Well, I guess you could shoot 1080/30p and have that playback in a 24p timeline and you would have slight slow motion.

From what I understand, and I may be understanding this wrong, the ability to have 1080 progressive slow motion is in the chips themselves because the ccd scans 1080/60p and then everything goes from there, but the bottleneck is in the codec. DVCProHD maxes at 100mbs. 720/60p is 100mbs in DVCProHD giving us a possibility of 60 progessive fps slow motion in a 24p timeline. 1080/60i is also 100mbs. If a 1080 signal is progressive there is only enough "room" in the codec until you hit 100mbs. A 1080/60p signal is too much for the codec to handle. Everything in 1080 mode is embedded in a 60i signal. Again, my understanding on this may be incorrect.

What I don't understand is why they couldn't give us a 1080/24pN mode. Why can't there be a Native mode for 24p in the 1080 mode?

Shannon Rawls · January 6th, 2006, 06:16 PM

Thank you Brian! Thanks for clearing that up.

So what the heck do I need the "N"ative modes for anyway? Why ever use it?? Might as well keep the camera on the Standard mode at all times and use that rock stead format instead.

This camera will be a Music Video Directors Dream come true! *smile*
That sucks about no slow/fast motion in 1080p. Oh well, can't have everything.

Now about that AUDIO RECORDING during fast or slow motion? Does the camera record some type of audio during these settings? That's extremely important.

- ShannonRawls.com

Steev Dinkins · January 6th, 2006, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Thank you Brian! Thanks for clearing that up.

So what the heck do I need the "N"ative modes for anyway? Why ever use it??

You'd use it to record *pure* 24fps to P2. Why waste the space on 60p, if you're recording 24fps. The files will be much smaller. However, I know you've said you're not down with 720p, so in that case, you'd probably never use the "N" modes.

Brian Petersen · January 6th, 2006, 07:06 PM

The Native mode seems great to use when using P2 cards (or the Cineporter, if it works like a large P2 card, which I think it will) because you don't have to convert or pulldown anything in your editing system, saving you time. And it doesn't take up as much space with the extra frames, saving you space.

As for audio. IF in Native mode then it seems that audio will not be recorded IF your playback speed is different than you capture speed. SO, if you are shooting in 24pN and have it set to do any other framerate OTHER than 24 than audio will not be recorded. So NO audio when doing variable frame rates in Native mode.

BUT, in standard mode it says in the broucher is DOES record audio in variable frame rates. This is because whatever frame rate you shoot in it will be imbedded in a standard stream and audio can be recorded in that standard stream. So, if you need audio during your slow or fast motion you need should NOT use Native mode.

Doing variable frames rates can be confusing at first because when you want to shoot 60fps you at first think of just going into 720/60p mode. But that is wrong. That would give you a video 60p look, NOT slow-mo. You need to choose a a mode that matches your timebase (24, 30, 60, etc.) then choose what variable frame rate you want.

EDIT: Although this is what the manual says, I may be trumped soon, because Barry said the production model DID record audio in Native mode for variable frame rates and it simply didn't playback the audio unless it matched up with the timebase. So either the manual is incorrect or they changed the way it worked from the production model.

Phil Hover · January 6th, 2006, 08:41 PM

Can you say "double system sound"? I'm glad that it mutes the audio in 60p over 24pN because slowing down 48K 16bit to match 60p will not be good. But recording 192K 24bit on a pro recorder and slowing it down will sound so much better.

Barry Green · January 6th, 2006, 09:00 PM

Audio is recorded at all times. But if you're recording an offspeed clip (i.e., shooting 720/24pN at 60 fps) then it won't play the audio -- it would sound like Dory in "Finding Nemo" trying to speak "whale". But the audio is recorded, it's on the card, it's in the folder. If you decided you wanted to try to do something with the audio, it's there for you. But the camera by default doesn't play back the audio on offspeed clips.

(note: I'm 99.3% certain on this, but until I get a native MXF file reading editor, I can't be 100% sure).

Shannon Rawls · January 6th, 2006, 09:25 PM

Ok, gotcha. So long as it records SOMETHING!

And here we go again...They should just tell us that it won't play it back. But it does actually record it. it says it will not "RECORD". and that's not the truth. Couple that with the 1080i and 480i in the menu when it really should say 1080p and 480p, Panasonic is goin to scare the hell out of a few folk and have them raise unneccessary questions.

*EDIT*
looks like no sound is recorded at all....read Barry's post below!

- ShannonRawls.com

Barry Green · January 7th, 2006, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shannon Rawls

Ok, gotcha. So long as it records SOMETHING!

And here we go again...They should just tell us that it won't play it back. But it does actually record it. it says it will not "RECORD". and that's not the truth. Couple that with the 1080i and 480i in the menu when it really should say 1080p and 480p, Panasonic is goin to scare the hell out of a few folk and have them raise unneccessary questions.

- ShannonRawls.com

Looks like I got it wrong here -- it does record sound in the 720/24p and 720/30p modes, regardless of frame rate. But it doesn't record sound in the "N" modes at off speeds apparently. If you're shooting 24pN at 12fps, no sound file apparently gets recorded; I couldn't find a link to it in the XML file and couldn't find a specifically associated audio MXF in the audio folder that was associated with the offspeed clip. So no, looks like the manual's right -- if you specifically go in for overcranking or undercranking, it doesn't bother to record audio in those circumstances.

Shannon Rawls · January 7th, 2006, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry Green

if you specifically go in for overcranking or undercranking, it doesn't bother to record audio in those circumstances.

DAMMIT!
Ok.....gotta figure someting out. Yes yes, I know about double sound. But you don't understand my situation. This was important for me.

Ok...thanks Barry!

- ShannonRawls.com

Scott Schuster · January 7th, 2006, 10:02 AM

[QUOTE=Barry Green]Looks like I got it wrong here -- it does record sound in the 720/24p and 720/30p modes, regardless of frame rate. But it doesn't record sound in the "N" modes at off speeds apparently.

Shannon I am not understanding your problem.It seems you can shoot slow mo and get sound but your recording media will be a filled up faster with frames that you have to remove. Yes another process step but it gets you what you need. Am I missing something?

Barry Green · January 7th, 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Schuster

Shannon I am not understanding your problem.It seems you can shoot slow mo and get sound but your recording media will be a filled up faster with frames that you have to remove. Yes another process step but it gets you what you need. Am I missing something?

Correct, you can get the exact same results, you just would have to shoot in the "over 60" mode like on the VariCam, and then execute a frame rate extraction in post, but the end result would be frame-for-frame identical and with sound.

January 6th, 2006, 05:55 PM	#5
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	And the variable rates are only in 720. Well, I guess you could shoot 1080/30p and have that playback in a 24p timeline and you would have slight slow motion. From what I understand, and I may be understanding this wrong, the ability to have 1080 progressive slow motion is in the chips themselves because the ccd scans 1080/60p and then everything goes from there, but the bottleneck is in the codec. DVCProHD maxes at 100mbs. 720/60p is 100mbs in DVCProHD giving us a possibility of 60 progessive fps slow motion in a 24p timeline. 1080/60i is also 100mbs. If a 1080 signal is progressive there is only enough "room" in the codec until you hit 100mbs. A 1080/60p signal is too much for the codec to handle. Everything in 1080 mode is embedded in a 60i signal. Again, my understanding on this may be incorrect. What I don't understand is why they couldn't give us a 1080/24pN mode. Why can't there be a Native mode for 24p in the 1080 mode? __________________ Brian Petersen www.thinktankthemovie.com www.albrightacademy.com

January 6th, 2006, 06:16 PM	#6
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Thank you Brian! Thanks for clearing that up. So what the heck do I need the "N"ative modes for anyway? Why ever use it?? Might as well keep the camera on the Standard mode at all times and use that rock stead format instead. This camera will be a Music Video Directors Dream come true! smile That sucks about no slow/fast motion in 1080p. Oh well, can't have everything. Now about that AUDIO RECORDING during fast or slow motion? Does the camera record some type of audio during these settings? That's extremely important. - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 6th, 2006, 07:06 PM	#8
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	The Native mode seems great to use when using P2 cards (or the Cineporter, if it works like a large P2 card, which I think it will) because you don't have to convert or pulldown anything in your editing system, saving you time. And it doesn't take up as much space with the extra frames, saving you space. As for audio. IF in Native mode then it seems that audio will not be recorded IF your playback speed is different than you capture speed. SO, if you are shooting in 24pN and have it set to do any other framerate OTHER than 24 than audio will not be recorded. So NO audio when doing variable frame rates in Native mode. BUT, in standard mode it says in the broucher is DOES record audio in variable frame rates. This is because whatever frame rate you shoot in it will be imbedded in a standard stream and audio can be recorded in that standard stream. So, if you need audio during your slow or fast motion you need should NOT use Native mode. Doing variable frames rates can be confusing at first because when you want to shoot 60fps you at first think of just going into 720/60p mode. But that is wrong. That would give you a video 60p look, NOT slow-mo. You need to choose a a mode that matches your timebase (24, 30, 60, etc.) then choose what variable frame rate you want. EDIT: Although this is what the manual says, I may be trumped soon, because Barry said the production model DID record audio in Native mode for variable frame rates and it simply didn't playback the audio unless it matched up with the timebase. So either the manual is incorrect or they changed the way it worked from the production model. __________________ Brian Petersen www.thinktankthemovie.com www.albrightacademy.com

January 6th, 2006, 09:25 PM	#11
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	Ok, gotcha. So long as it records SOMETHING! And here we go again...They should just tell us that it won't play it back. But it does actually record it. it says it will not "RECORD". and that's not the truth. Couple that with the 1080i and 480i in the menu when it really should say 1080p and 480p, Panasonic is goin to scare the hell out of a few folk and have them raise unneccessary questions. EDIT looks like no sound is recorded at all....read Barry's post below! - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition. Last edited by Shannon Rawls; January 7th, 2006 at 09:25 AM.

January 6th, 2006, 05:10 PM	#1
Shannon Rawls Major Player Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 853	No sound recorded or firewire output when 720p24N or 30N is used? I was wondering why I didn't hear much audio on Kaku's clips. So I'm skimming through the new HVX-200 manual and I get to page 35. It explains NATIVE recording (which is the one that these NLE can understand right now). In section #4 it says: ●No signals are output from the 1394 terminal during recording or recording standby in the native modes. ●Sound is not recorded. However sound will be recorded when the same frame rate is used for both recording and playback. Is that correct? So you mean to tell me i get no audio recorded & no firewire output in 24N or 30N? Ok, lets me make sure I got this straight.... 1. In order to take advantage of recording OVERCRANKING & UNDERCRANKING (slow and fast motion) I must use the "N" native mode only. 2. In order to take advantage of recording only the effective frames and saving P2 card space, I must use the "N" native mode only However, in doing so, I cannot record any audio or get an output signal through firewire to record on my laptop. Dude, I must have someting mixed up. I can't record slow-motion footage to my laptop?? I can't record audio when doing slow or fast motion?? If this is true, then why was this never mentioned before? Am I the only one who thinks this is extremely important? I MUST record sound in order to do slow-motion lipsync scenes. The same framerate naturally won't be used for playback as it was for recording. That renders the feature useless if I do that. Barry, please explain it to me.. Also.....it says there is no slow motion or fast motion recording in 1080p? That only works in 720p? Is this true as well? I also found out the camera only records 23.98 frame rate and not solid 24. That's why it won't work in Avid XPress Pro HD. sad face - ShannonRawls.com __________________ Shannon W. Rawls ~ Motion Picture Producer & huge advocate of Digital Acquisition.

January 6th, 2006, 05:17 PM	#2
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	I don't know the answer on the other questions, but I think it has been mentioned a lot before: under or overcranking is only possible in 720p, not in 1080p... __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

January 6th, 2006, 05:30 PM	#3
Gary McClurg Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Springfield, MO, USA Posts: 389	From the beginning Panasonic said you could shoot different frames rates only in 720...

January 6th, 2006, 05:39 PM	#4
Brian Petersen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 62	Shannon, You can do slow and fast motion to your laptop out the firewire, but it will not be in "native" mode. Native modes only work to P2, but you don't lose anything. You just have to be in the regual 24p or 24pa or whatever mode and then what shoots out the firewire is always embedded the same 100mbs stream regardess of 24 fps or 60 fps. So you will never get only active frames going out the firewire. You'll always get flagged frames that need to be removed through a frame converter or pulldown (like with the Varicam). All available frame rates are available out the firewire port, they will just be imbedded into a non-native stream. If you record to a laptop or self-powered external drive, you will get 100mbs period. No such thing as saving space by shooting in 24p. So in answer to your statements. Statement #1 is incorrect. Statement #2 is correct. __________________ Brian Petersen www.thinktankthemovie.com www.albrightacademy.com

January 6th, 2006, 08:41 PM	#9
Phil Hover Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Costa Mesa, The OC, CA Posts: 87	Can you say "double system sound"? I'm glad that it mutes the audio in 60p over 24pN because slowing down 48K 16bit to match 60p will not be good. But recording 192K 24bit on a pro recorder and slowing it down will sound so much better.

January 6th, 2006, 09:00 PM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Audio is recorded at all times. But if you're recording an offspeed clip (i.e., shooting 720/24pN at 60 fps) then it won't play the audio -- it would sound like Dory in "Finding Nemo" trying to speak "whale". But the audio is recorded, it's on the card, it's in the folder. If you decided you wanted to try to do something with the audio, it's there for you. But the camera by default doesn't play back the audio on offspeed clips. (note: I'm 99.3% certain on this, but until I get a native MXF file reading editor, I can't be 100% sure).

January 7th, 2006, 10:02 AM	#14
Scott Schuster Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 28	[QUOTE=Barry Green]Looks like I got it wrong here -- it does record sound in the 720/24p and 720/30p modes, regardless of frame rate. But it doesn't record sound in the "N" modes at off speeds apparently. Shannon I am not understanding your problem.It seems you can shoot slow mo and get sound but your recording media will be a filled up faster with frames that you have to remove. Yes another process step but it gets you what you need. Am I missing something?