Someone please clear up for me the goods on the HVX-200 at DVinfo.net

Laurence Maher · January 25th, 2006, 02:59 PM

I've heard from some that it looks great, but also heard that it's not really 720p/1080p because of pixel shifting and heard that the data rate might not actually be 100mbps or something.

For those of you with the knowledge that now actually have a camera . . .

WHAT'S THE DEAL? Thanks

Steven Thomas · January 25th, 2006, 06:39 PM

This is well documented and not some secret mystery.

In 1080 mode the camera will record a 1080/60i stream with a 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown.
This is the same way the DVX does to achieve it's 24P but from a 480i
stream. In 720 mode it can record at 60P. Also, the 720/60P stream can be sampled to give you 30p or 24P.
Sampling at 24P allows the data rate to be less; thus not stealing as much P2 memory.

Laurence Maher · January 25th, 2006, 07:08 PM

Look, someone in the p2 area mentioned something about it being a possibly watered down version of what would be considered a 720 signal. (Kind of like hdv is really just watered down HD). This was due to something about pixel shifting. I'm looking for an answer from THAT guy. I'm not saying I'm more technically accute than you (maybe I'm not . . . maybe I AM), but I'm certain there's someone on these boards that IS. And that person might be able to tell me something besides what everyone reads on Panasonic's web page.

Barry Werger · January 25th, 2006, 08:30 PM

Dear Laurence:

No camera does 1080p the way you seem to mean. JVC does 720p but splits the screen! Lots of cameras pixel-shift. Some pixel-shift in two directions. Some lenses can't handle SD. Some lenses handle 2K! Some cameras have 1440, some scaled to 1920, some more or less! Horizontal res? Vertical res? Gotta have a look see. Color res? Some are 4:2:0, some 4:2:2. Are some 4:4:4? Maybe with HD-SDI. So what and which "DO" 1080p and 720p? The answer is clear!

Barry Werger · January 25th, 2006, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laurence Maher

Look, someone in the p2 area mentioned something about it being a possibly watered down version of what would be considered a 720 signal. (Kind of like hdv is really just watered down HD). This was due to something about pixel shifting. I'm looking for an answer from THAT guy. I'm not saying I'm more technically accute than you (maybe I'm not . . . maybe I AM), but I'm certain there's someone on these boards that IS. And that person might be able to tell me something besides what everyone reads on Panasonic's web page.

I'm loads more technical than him! And I second his answer. But to put it in maybe more "technical" terms that technical guys like us can understand, there's different kinds of water, and even the greatest kinda pro cameras use at least some kind of watering down, and it's not so much the amount of water or the brand of water or the price of the water, but the taste of the water you have to judge. Coffee beans require a lot of watering to be useful (or at least a chocolate coating), while a good cup of coffee has more water than bean. But adding water to yesterdays leftover half-cup would suck. So go drink some, rather than counting the grains in a teaspoon!

Stephen L. Noe · January 25th, 2006, 09:16 PM

The reality is that we don't know. Panasonic has not release the pixel count for their CCD so there is no way to reverse engineer the pixel shifting without some known constants. I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's been watered down but I can not prove it nor can anyone else I know.

I wrote this on another forum. The JVC HD-100 is the only one we know for sure is actually 1280x720 pixel for pixel progressive. The other manufacturers have chosen to be, shall we say, not forthcoming about their engineering.

Steven Thomas · January 25th, 2006, 11:51 PM

Hmmm...
I don't think this topic has been covered before :)

Yes it's understood that they are using pixel shift, and lot of us have came up with or own theory on the ccd rez possibilites

From the start, Jan stated they are using it, but would not disclose finer details.

Sure it would be nice to know, but the picture is what counts.

I agree it's not as sharp as the H1, but it sure looks good.

January 25th, 2006, 02:59 PM	#1
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Someone please clear up for me the goods on the HVX-200 I've heard from some that it looks great, but also heard that it's not really 720p/1080p because of pixel shifting and heard that the data rate might not actually be 100mbps or something. For those of you with the knowledge that now actually have a camera . . . WHAT'S THE DEAL? Thanks

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January 25th, 2006, 06:39 PM	#2
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	This is well documented and not some secret mystery. In 1080 mode the camera will record a 1080/60i stream with a 2:3 or 2:3:3:2 pulldown. This is the same way the DVX does to achieve it's 24P but from a 480i stream. In 720 mode it can record at 60P. Also, the 720/60P stream can be sampled to give you 30p or 24P. Sampling at 24P allows the data rate to be less; thus not stealing as much P2 memory.

January 25th, 2006, 07:08 PM	#3
Laurence Maher Join Date: May 2004 Location: denton, texas, usa Posts: 416	Look, someone in the p2 area mentioned something about it being a possibly watered down version of what would be considered a 720 signal. (Kind of like hdv is really just watered down HD). This was due to something about pixel shifting. I'm looking for an answer from THAT guy. I'm not saying I'm more technically accute than you (maybe I'm not . . . maybe I AM), but I'm certain there's someone on these boards that IS. And that person might be able to tell me something besides what everyone reads on Panasonic's web page.

January 25th, 2006, 08:30 PM	#4
Barry Werger Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 104	Dear Laurence: No camera does 1080p the way you seem to mean. JVC does 720p but splits the screen! Lots of cameras pixel-shift. Some pixel-shift in two directions. Some lenses can't handle SD. Some lenses handle 2K! Some cameras have 1440, some scaled to 1920, some more or less! Horizontal res? Vertical res? Gotta have a look see. Color res? Some are 4:2:0, some 4:2:2. Are some 4:4:4? Maybe with HD-SDI. So what and which "DO" 1080p and 720p? The answer is clear!

January 25th, 2006, 09:16 PM	#6
Stephen L. Noe Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,214	The reality is that we don't know. Panasonic has not release the pixel count for their CCD so there is no way to reverse engineer the pixel shifting without some known constants. I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's been watered down but I can not prove it nor can anyone else I know. I wrote this on another forum. The JVC HD-100 is the only one we know for sure is actually 1280x720 pixel for pixel progressive. The other manufacturers have chosen to be, shall we say, not forthcoming about their engineering.

January 25th, 2006, 11:51 PM	#7
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Hmmm... I don't think this topic has been covered before :) Yes it's understood that they are using pixel shift, and lot of us have came up with or own theory on the ccd rez possibilites From the start, Jan stated they are using it, but would not disclose finer details. Sure it would be nice to know, but the picture is what counts. I agree it's not as sharp as the H1, but it sure looks good.