For Those Of Us Who Can't Test

[Robert Lane]

Leigh,

B&H is always selling demos of almost everything they have. They never last long because they do sell for slightly less than full retail, have a full warranty and have been checked out before they get re-sold. If you worry about things like that, how would you ever test drive a car? (laughs)

Your idea for a demo DVD of all the cameras is super. Now if only somebody had the time (and all the cameras) to do it.

[Tim Brown]

Chris Hurd is already working on this very project along with Mike Curtis and Adam Wilt. I'm not sure when the DVD will be available, but I think the testing is going down this month.

[Leigh Wanstead]

I was checking B&H price for some open box special around 20 months ago, but their price seems no significant different from their retail price. So I did not buy items from them except one training DVD.

To your question: how would you ever test drive a car?

I testify that I don't know how to drive a car, so I never test drive a car. ;-)

Regards
Leigh

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Leigh,

B&H is always selling demos of almost everything they have. They never last long because they do sell for slightly less than full retail, have a full warranty and have been checked out before they get re-sold. If you worry about things like that, how would you ever test drive a car? (laughs)

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Leigh Wanstead

I see a business oportunity here. Why can't someone sell these compare result for some money? Let's say US$100 for a DVD. That must be very cost effective solution for the buyer. ;-) And is very profitable for the seller too. US$100 is not that much considering spent US$8,000 for the camera

This is what I proposed a few months ago.

I would do it all myself, and provide footage from two Sony HDV cameras and HVX200.

Not scopes, not sprectrum -- nothing technical.

Just footage of:

1. college basketball game

2. Indoor well lit talking head

3. Whatever else.

Raw files on the DVD.

I don't have an axe to grind. Just want some comparisons from a one person job not doing national commercials.

I proposed this to Jan C. a few weeks ago.

No response.

Not blaming her because she gets hundreds of e mails a day.

I write for a bunch of on line video editing sites. My reputation is based on honestly reviewing what I have.

I'm asking here publicly again that Panasonic consider this.

Anyway, I doubt there any change it will.

[Leigh Wanstead]

Hi David,

Why don't you rent a hxv200?

Just a suggestion ;-)

I believe that who get this dvd out first will first grab a big market share.

Regards
Leigh

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Leigh Wanstead

Hi David,

Why don't you rent a hxv200?

From where?

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by Tim Brown

Chris Hurd is already working on this very project along with Mike Curtis and Adam Wilt. I'm not sure when the DVD will be available, but I think the testing is going down this month.

Actually the latest plan for the "Texas Shootout" you describe calls for a session in early April. It was necessary to push the date a little later to coordinate everyones' schedule. Look for more info on this from Chris soon!

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Actually the latest plan for the "Texas Shootout" you describe calls for a session in early April. It was necessary to push the date a little later to coordinate everyones' schedule. Look for more info on this from Chris soon!

Some people are missing my point. I don't want a bunch of the heavyweights getting together with charts and graphs and scopes and computers.

I just want someone with a Sony and a HVX200 and a Canon if that is possible to take identical footage of the same subject. Take the raw files to a data DVD, and make it available.

A basketball game

a talking head.

Some fast pans of heavily treed areas.

That's it.

I respect all these people, but I don't want to read all the stats, I just want to look at some raw footage of the same subject matter.

A bunch of us have been asking for this or something similar since December.

It's February 16th.

Any way, I'm preaching to the choir.

[Boyd Ostroff]

Originally Posted by David Saraceno

Some people are missing my point.

With all due respect David, a number of people have tried to make helpful suggestions, but you've thrown cold water on them. Many of us have agonized over camera purchases and wrestled with similar issues, then in the end we just "gave it our best shot" and made a choice. It's unfortunate that your geographic area makes it difficult for you to get hands on experience with the cameras you're considering. But there are such things as frequent flyer miles and cheap PriceLine tickets. A trip to B&H Photo might be a very worthwhile investment, and you could catch a Broadway show or do something else fun while you're there.

You may need to spend a buck or two if you feel that the existing interent resources on these cameras is inadequate. If you do this as a business then I believe your travel expenses could be deductible (talk to your accountant).

[David Saraceno]

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

With all due respect David, a number of people have tried to make helpful suggestions, but you've thrown cold water on them. .

With all due respect, Boyd, I've not thrown cold water on any suggestion.

We've seriously evaluated every suggestion. Grant's Pass isn't Panny authorized. They don't have any cams, much less Canons for comparisons.

The issues are shooting footage that differentiates the cameras and codecs. Not sitting in a store, and trying to remember what each cam looked like shooting an interior.

I emailed Jan.

We contacted the Seattle Panny representative at Jan's suggestion, but he doesn't have any cams.

Same with Portland.

We looked at San Francisco, but that's a $1,000 bill for us. Even if we can orchestrate it.

Flying 6,000 miles roundtrip to New York City in the dead of winter is beyond our budget, and alot of people asking the same questions as we are.

I have to say I take umbrage with your comment. If something isn't workable, it's not "throwing cold water on it."

Take care

[Chris Hurd]

Umbrage? You're taking umbrage? Well I suppose I should probably thank you then. We've had a lot worse than umbrage taken around here recently, so if it's just umbrage you want, you've got it, with my compliments.

I don't want a bunch of the heavyweights getting together with charts and graphs and scopes and computers.

Neither do I. That's not what the Texas Shootout is gonna be.

Meanwhile David, I wholeheartedly encourage you to to continue with your planned tests, don't give up, don't take no for an answer. If you're not hearing back from one manufacturer's rep, try another. There are lots of 'em to chose from. Persistence always pays off.

Boyd gave you the best possible advice, by the way. If you don't take his words of wisdom to heart, then I sincerely hope that somebody else will.

Any DVD that comes out of the Texas Shootout will *not* be $100. It'll be more like... cost. I can't speak for Mike Curtis, but I will say that he and I are fairly like-minded on things, and neither of us are looking to profit from a DVD offering... only to cover our expenses, that's all.

[Sergio Perez]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Umbrage? You're taking umbrage? Well I suppose I should probably thank you then. We've had a lot worse than umbrage taken around here recently, so if it's just umbrage you want, you've got it, with my compliments.

Neither do I. That's not what the Texas Shootout is gonna be.

Meanwhile David, I wholeheartedly encourage you to to continue with your planned tests, don't give up, don't take no for an answer. If you're not hearing back from one manufacturer's rep, try another. There are lots of 'em to chose from. Persistence always pays off.

Boyd gave you the best possible advice, by the way. If you don't take his words of wisdom to heart, then I sincerely hope that somebody else will.

Any DVD that comes out of the Texas Shootout will *not* be $100. It'll be more like... cost. I can't speak for Mike Curtis, but I will say that he and I are fairly like-minded on things, and neither of us are looking to profit from a DVD offering... only to cover our expenses, that's all.

Chris, you'll have the shootout in April? So is it possible to include the PAL HVX on it? I believe people would be very curious to see the results and diferences between the Pal and Ntsc models... The 1440 lines in pal vs the 1280 in ntsc could be a deciding factor for many film out HD Filmmakers and producers out there!

[Kevin Shaw]

I shot some comparison footage this week from all four of the latest HD cameras, and will be making that available soon through WEVA. One thing I learned from doing this is that the four cameras are so completely different from each other that their functional differences may be at least as important as image quality concerns, depending on your specific needs. If you don't already have a sense of how these cameras compare in terms of features, physical form and workflow issues, I'd recommend researching that relative to your personal preferences in addition to comparing image quality results.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

One thing I learned from doing this is that the four cameras are so completely different from each other that their functional differences may be at least as important as image quality concerns, depending on your specific needs.

The above sentence is one of the most sensible I've come across for a long time. Much of what's been written about resolution, technicalities etc is very interesting theoretically, and it does need to be discussed, but in terms of informing a buying decision it should be quite well down the list. ALL the cameras being discussed have a performance substantially above anything available only a year or two back.

The P2 v tape is a far greater factor, IMO. P2 may be absolutely the right way to go for some people, for others it may make the HVX a non starter. For handheld actuality filming a wide angle lens and good ergonomics are two matters of high importance. So how does one here rate, say, the HVX v the HD100? The HVX is a clear winner from the lens angle point of view, but most people would consider it well beaten by the HD100 from the ergonomic viewpoint. Which is most important to you?

[Bob Grant]

These kinds of decisions are very personal. Given that none of the choices are considered to be lemons it comes down in the end to how you approach what you've bought. Put in the time to get to know how to get the most out of the gear and you'll grow to love it. Of course having bought something like one of these cameras as all of them have some limitations you can just as easily end up hating the thing if you decide to focus on what you see as wrong with it.
In the end perhaps the best (and also silliest) bit of advice I'd give is to buy the one you think looks the sexiest. At least if you start off with a positive feel about it you'll put in the effort to end up loving it.

Certainly don't overlook previous advice about workflow. A lot of pro camera buying decisions are based in just this issue. Availability of reliable service is also not a trivial issue if you're a long way from a major city.

And my last bit of advice, don't ask experts for advice, they'll give you ten choices and ten reasons why none of them are any good.