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Panasonic P2HD / DVCPRO HD Camcorders
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Old April 6th, 2006, 06:21 AM   #1
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are u getting one now?? or are u gonna wait??

just a question ive been thinking about..

i mean sure id LOVE to grab a couple of these babies... but for some reason, going by the way Pana have "evolved" their gear over time, i have the inclination to wait..

not that HD isnt important in what im doing, it is.. but for some reason sometign is telling me to wait..

what are ur thoughts/??
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Old April 6th, 2006, 06:45 AM   #2
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I'm anxious, but like you, I'll wait a little longer. Mostly because my money hasn't come in yet, partly because I can't decide which cam to get. The HD100 is looking strong, but there seem to be a few bugs in it. When is Nab?
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Old April 6th, 2006, 08:13 AM   #3
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NAB is later this month...

i guess for me its afew things.. first is cost.. and like u the HD101 seems to be the next best option.. uses tapes and i dont have to worry bout my NLE taking it onboard... but i just dont like HDV and HDV audio compression and the fact that one of the JVC sales managers actually told me to wait for the next release is whats saying no..
Then theres the cost of P2 and its operation in long form.. i know htere are alternatives being harped on about, but next be real here, theres no way in hell im going to be switching P2 cards on the fly while im shooting a wedding whilst in the aisle.. It just wont happen..
Then theres NLE implementation.. im waiting for Sony to get their act together.. we'll see what happens coz i sure as hell wont use Edius, Liquid or FCP... i just cant work with them..
Then theres the issue of delivery.. most of my work is DVD delivery so DVCPro50 is a great format to work in until HD DVD/Blue ray comes out.. speaking of which, theres no point in delivering in any of these formats nutil the consumer has these units in their house..
for me, im waiting until the video shops shelve said movies before i start to worry about HD delivery to my consumers
Also, with the way video is going and the additional work which is now required for HD editing it jsut doesnt seem to be worthwhile when u consider that here in aus, your struggling to sell an SD DVD of a wedding for 2k... for HD theres alot mroe work involved and someone has to pay for that, i jsut dont see the wedding market doing that... which is why im looking to jump ship to Stills, btu thats another story altogether..

I guess the reason im posting this is to figure out what is holding people back. I know whats holding me back, but im interested to see how other peole are evolving to this "HD revolution"
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Old April 6th, 2006, 08:40 AM   #4
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Hey Peter, I'm considering a new camera package, and I'm trying to wait as long as I can to see what else comes out. My target is June of this year, July at the latest.

My thoughts are leaning towards the Z1-u, partly because of it's down covert etc, future planning etc.

I'm not up on when new stuff is coming out, for all I know there's another option coming out next week. I appreciate you posting this thread, because if NAB is next week, I wonder if anything else will come out camerawise that will give me other options. Hell, I just want a camera that packs a better punch than my GL2. I would like to keep my camera purchase to once every couple of years. (was that me or was that my wife speaking) M Y W O N D E R F U L W I F E.

So if you have a crystal ball, look into it for me and let me know if a better HDV or so option is coming.

Did I mention my wonderful wife..........
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Old April 6th, 2006, 10:08 AM   #5
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lol, yes, my financial manager... err.. wife... also plays a major role here.. lol

thing is what the Z1 can do, the DVX IMO can do better. For me, i still feel that upscaling DVX progressive footage to 720p still looks a little nicer than interlaced 1080i. Obviousy you wont have that sharpness, but i cant fault the colour on the DVX..
Image wise, obviously HDV is sharper then DV, but the Z1 just doesnt have the controlability or should that be tweakability, of the DVX or HVX, or JVC for that matter.. and the H1 is just a little (alot actually) out of my price range).
Ths is why i was leaning toward the JVC, coz its also has very similar options to the DVX itself.. i mean if i dont go for teh HVX.. id prolly go the JVC.. whne the second release comes out..
Wwhich would be a real shame coz i already have batteries and every other accessory for it so theres more money gone..

FYI, The HVX can also downconvert to tape if requried even 24pn slowmo footage can be recorded to tape..
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Old April 6th, 2006, 11:49 AM   #6
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I'm waiting to hear what RED brings...
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Old April 6th, 2006, 10:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson
but for some reason, going by the way Pana have "evolved" their gear over time, i have the inclination to wait..
I've been thinking the same thing. Judging by the way the DVX series evolved from the 100 to the 100A and the significant improvements made in the A. Which, by the way, is a testament to how effectively Panasonic listens to their customers. So I don't doubt that the 200A will be much improved over the 200. The question is will I be able to make back my money and then some before the 200A comes out?

That said, had I pre-ordered and gotten a camera in Dec/Jan, I probably would have made my money back renting the camera or using the camera on jobs - given the excitement (for the camera) in the indie filmmaking community. I'm primarily a narrative shooter, BTW.

But I didn't. So the question is, is it a good investment now? Maybe. Though the one thing that gives me pause is the P2 cards. The prices are coming down and that trend will continue. At the same time though, there are apparently shortages of P2 cards - lots of anecdotal stories about HVX owners w/o P2 cards. I'd hate to get a camera now and not have P2s. Add to the mix that the your $1400 8GB P2 card could cost half that 6 months from now.

BTW, I used the camera last weekend for a narrative shoot that was dialogue heavy and even with 4 4GB cards and a P2 Store we had problems keeping up after the P2 Store filled up. Granted we were shooting 1080/24P so we couldn't use PN mode to extend record time.

I guess the conclusion I've made for my own purposes is that when the camera and P2 media is generally available and I land a gig that pays for 1/3 or more of the cost of a shootable package (about $10K I'd say), I'd run out and get one. But for now, I'm sitting on the sidelines.
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Old April 9th, 2006, 02:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathieu Ghekiere
I'm waiting to hear what RED brings...
Me too.

I really want HVX200's to be 2/3, not 1/3

I really like true pixel count.

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Old April 9th, 2006, 10:31 PM   #9
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Just theoretically, how much would it cost to make the HVX200 a 2/3" camera but maintain a similar size? $2000 more? What?
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Old April 10th, 2006, 12:38 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Felis
Just theoretically, how much would it cost to make the HVX200 a 2/3" camera but maintain a similar size? $2000 more? What?
Since the HVX does pixel-shifting magic to achieve HD res, we'll compare it to the SDX900. HVX has P2 slots - not a DVCPRO50 tape deck, so SPX800. SPX800 comes in at $19.5K list w/o a lens. Let's say that the built-in optics from the HVX are worth $500-$1000 (wild guess, don't know how much built-in optics cost). So you're roughly talking around $20K and that's before any miniaturization costs are factored in. Also don't know what variable frame rates and pixel-shifting adds to the cost.

Of course, the above comparison doesn't factor in that 2/3" chips will require better optics and you'll start getting into the $30K-$40K range due to optics.

Optics are the one part of the equation that most people miss. Once you start increasing imager size, you'll need better optics and probably better electronics which are harder to miniaturize. Which is why if you look around most, if not all, 1/2" and larger imager cameras are shoulder-mount cameras with interchangeable lenses. Changeable lenses because then the camera-maker can just re-use existing lenses without having to engineer their own built-in optics for each camera.
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Old April 10th, 2006, 09:29 AM   #11
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I'm going to wait at least the end of this year until the NLE support/firestore/P2 availability gets sorted out and the price drops alot more. Also HD dvd or blueray should also make a showing. You know dual layer dvds have been out for ages but each disc cost 10X that of your single standard dvd and the technology is "old". How much will these new discs cost? Alot.

As for the A then B models coming out I dont think there will be a huge change in image quality. It will mainly be useability improvements.

Also most of the consumer crap that gets labelled "HD" display even have enough pixels to display hd properly.

Sorry to be so cynical but sd will be around for a long time and hd wont be a practical reality in my opinion for another 5 years. Thats fine with me anyway as most of the stuff I make are personal projects.
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Old April 10th, 2006, 03:35 PM   #12
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I had a pre-order for an HVX200 in December, but cancelled and got the JVC HD100 when a project came up too soon to wait for it. Now I've been bouncing around whether to keep the JVC or sell it and get the HVX200.

The only things holding me back right now are the lack of native support for editing DVCPRO-HD in Premiere Pro (my app of choice), and the fact that the JVC is actually doing a really great job. Not sure I want to get rid of it.
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Old April 10th, 2006, 09:09 PM   #13
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Well, Earl, I've seen the HD100 before at last year's NAB and from what I can tell from the HVX200 clips, you'll just be trading chicken for fried chicken. Different style, still chicken.

The HD100 is just such a nice camera already and unless you REALLY feel you've got to have the variable frame rates and the 4:2:2 color space you won't be getting much more than you already are.

Now, a trade up to the RED? That's another story for another board. =)
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Old April 11th, 2006, 10:43 AM   #14
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I agree... Earl if ur making money and ur comfortable using the camera, use the old adage, if it aint broke, dont fix it.
That said, if P2 workflow and everything else the HVX has that the JVC doesnt is important to your workflow, then by all means consider the possibilites of selling
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Old April 12th, 2006, 01:00 PM   #15
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Hence the dilemma. Despite some differences, I consider both cameras equal in terms of picture quality -- both are excellent. Ultimately, the decision boils down to specific operational differences.

What I love about the HD100:
- True MANUAL operation on the REMOVEABLE lens.
- Shoulder mounted form-factor.
- HDV tapes create an immediate archive.
- Ease of editing HDV via AspectHD in Premiere Pro.

What I'd love about the HVX200:
- SOLID STATE recording -- Despite the archiving benefit of tape, I don't trust it, nor the mechanics of tape drives. The less moving parts, the better.
- INTRA FRAME compression, rather than GOP-based.
- Variable frame rates -- definitely valuable because I do a lot of special effects work. (And, some recently discovered hacks uncover even more, including time exposures.)
- 4:2:2 sampling, same reason above.

Now, here's where it gets back to "getting one now or wait??" Based on what I consider the most important features (the uppercase items above), what I would REALLY like is essentially the HVX electronics in the HD100's body. So, it may be worth waiting to see what Panasonic has coming up next. It may be out of my league, but I already have the HD100 and don't absolutely need the HVX's features right now.
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