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Old July 15th, 2006, 07:28 PM   #16
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There's much more to a P2 card than just those four SD cards; hence the difference in price.

To suggest that a P2 card as "only" an array of four SD cards is to purposefully obfuscate the issue.

Besides, a P2 card is a business expense; why is the cost even an issue. Only a handful are needed and if they haven't paid for themselves within a month or two then something's wrong with your business model.

P2 is without question the single least expensive way to buy into the DVCPRO HD format.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:22 PM   #17
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Unless you count direct to disk shooting... DVCproHD tape drives are upwards of $15k for just the tape drive mechanism alone. I think P2 is fine for some apps. I use it for music videos where it is perfect. For docs or anything archival, it just doesnt fly... for me anyway...



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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
Besides, a P2 card is a business expense; why is the cost even an issue. Only a handful are needed and if they haven't paid for themselves within a month or two then something's wrong with your business model.
I've given up on trying to promote that very concept. It seems that so many people try to associate the P2 costs with other forms of storage or media. My HVX paid for itself and all of my P2 cards (2 4GB and 2 8GB) with the very first job I used it for. I probably will pass on 16GB cards as I truly have no use for them. Now, 32GB cards would be very nice as two of them would kick the camera up a notch to where it could be used underwater (did I actually just think of doing that?) or in other long-form situations I occasionally encounter. But FWIW, I'm at about 200 hours on my HVX right now and with recent drops in HDD and digital tape prices, I can archive DVCPROHD @ 100Mbps at about 80% the cost per minute of video vs. simply shooting miniDV tape.

What I find to be extremely odd is that so many of the critics and naysayers do not even own an HVX and/or any P2 media. Obviously it doesn't work for them (or they think it won't) or there are other issues holding them back. The HVX and P2 media in its current form work perfectly for the jobs they are intended for. ...That's ENG and and film production. Barry covers this very well in is new HVX book... Now for long-form work, that may be a different story, but I think we often have too many people around here trying to make the HVX into something it's not.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:32 PM   #19
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Unless you count direct to disk shooting...
Even for direct-to-disk recording, the P2 camera by itself is still the (now even more affordable without the cards) least expensive way to buy into the DVCPRO HD format. It's the least expensive way to buy into it, but if all you need to do is shoot, then rental might still the most affordable option, depending on the scope of the project of course.

Quote:
anything archival, it just doesnt fly
There are a wide variety of archival options for P2, but this already has been covered in this forum extensively.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:32 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ash Greyson
Unless you count direct to disk shooting... DVCproHD tape drives are upwards of $15k for just the tape drive mechanism alone. I think P2 is fine for some apps. I use it for music videos where it is perfect. For docs or anything archival, it just doesnt fly... for me anyway...
But DVCPROHD tape decks shouldn't even be a consideration or an issue. The only purpose to even having one is if you need to deliver an actual DVCPRO tape to a broadcaster and even then, there's usually other alternatives. ...Some things are cheaper to rent or to let another service provider do a conversion for you. OTOH, for some who work with the tape format regularly and have a need for it, $15K may just be a necessary expense, just like any other tool or piece ofequiment to get the job done.

Currently there are other more sensible solutions vs. a DVCPROHD deck. Like a compact notebook. Even a 1U rackmount PC or SFF desktop is probably more compact than any DVCPROHD deck offerings and will record a lot more video and do ita heck of a lot cheaper. I can build a competent PC to do the job and equip it with Edius for capture software and all for less than $2K.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:35 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by David Heath
Not true anymore. See http://www.sandisk.com/Products/Item...Flash_8GB.aspx . An 8GB CF with GUARANTEED read/write speeds of 20MBs - or 160Mbits/sec, well enough for DVCPRO HD, let alone the up and coming AVC formats.
Wow, thats what I need for my Nikon D200. 4 gigs is not enough when doing high-res timelapse.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
What I find to be extremely odd is that so many of the critics and naysayers do not even own an HVX and/or any P2 media.
Sadly this is all too common, and the unfortunate fact that it happens here is a reflection on my admittedly poor management of this forum. While I can't change hopelessly closed minds, I would like to *strongly* urge these people to please, please, please stay out of this board and find something more productive to do with their time.
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Old July 15th, 2006, 11:45 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
But DVCPROHD tape decks shouldn't even be a consideration or an issue.
My own point was that P2 takes the DVCPRO HD deck out of the neccessary category and puts it into the only-as-you-need-it rental category. Without P2, the only way to shoot DVCPRO HD is with a $60,000 tape-based camera package, and you've got to have a $20,000 deck to go with it.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 05:33 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd
There's much more to a P2 card than just those four SD cards; hence the difference in price.

To suggest that a P2 card as "only" an array of four SD cards is to purposefully obfuscate the issue..
If that remark is aimed at me then can I point out that I stated "Together with extra electronics, a PCMCIA "wrapper", and ...... a big price premium!" after you had posted "P2 *is* a Secure Digital card. Four of them together, to be exact." Hence I don't see how I can be charged with implying that a P2 card is "only" an array of four SD cards.

There indeed is much more to a P2 card than the SD cards, but whilst it was initially essential, advances in memory technology now make it unnecessary. If the 8GB CF card I posted the link to is as able to do the job (of recording DVCPRO HD), then why pay several times more for an 8GB P2 card?
Quote:
Besides, a P2 card is a business expense; why is the cost even an issue. Only a handful are needed and if they haven't paid for themselves within a month or two then something's wrong with your business model.
Or other people have different business models to yourself, and would require far more than a handful of cards to make solid state acquisition viable. Like me, they may not be simple "closed mind naysayers", but well understand the attraction of solid state acquisition, want to go down that path, but need the costs to come down significantly before making the jump. That would certainly be true if a large broadcaster wished to go down the solid state route.

Even for those for whom P2 is viable now, wouldn't they prefer to be able to spend less on cards, if the alternative is equally suitable for purpose? Surely all businesses try to keep all their expenses down?

This is, of course, all trying to predict the future. If you want a camera NOW, and want to record via solid state NOW then P2 is indeed the here and now solution. Just don't let that blind us to the potential big improvements that are likely coming along.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 09:50 AM   #25
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Lost it's way

If I remember correctly, the DVinfo.net mission is to share timely advice, tech tips, products reviews (from a users perspective, not a "wish I had one" or, "I think it's a bad idea" angle) and of course, share troubleshooting techniques and new methods of workflow.

Threads like this, that are nothing more than speculation, mild ranting and purposeful mis-information defeat the nature of the forum and do little to nothing in advancing good information sharing.

I too, occasionally get sucked into theoretical and academic debates, but mainly to help clear the air of mis-information or emotionally charged info that ruins an otherwise honest attempt by the original poster to gather data.

Since measurebators and debators abound on all forums I think there should be a directed and automatic method for separating the threads that are designed to help those of us who actually have good information to share or, need information to aid us in our work - from the un-ending debates and measurebating.

To that end, I have some suggestions, both for the forum members and, Chris, the owner:

1. If you want to start a thread that is theoretical, hypothetical or of the "what if" type then lets create a category that supports just those threads and you can post and debate to your hearts desire and not disturb the flow of the other threads.

2. If you make a post of the above mentioned types in a "regular" category, then it either A) Gets automatically deleted by the moderator or; B) Get's moved to the debating category - subject to the moderators discretion.

3. If a "debate/hypothetical" category isn't appropriate for this forum (and personally I think there are other forums better suited to those type of postings) then let's simply not allow the post to remain on the site and delete them.

For example, this thread was started by what can be considered and honest question: "When will (xxx) become available/created/be modified.. etc." The simple answer is: Nobody knows. Period. End of story - that is unless the actual manufacturer steps in and answers the question directly - which most often they do not. Anything more than that becomes speculation, guess-work and crystal-ball predictions and those posting should be deleted from the thread and the thread locked.

However, if the question had been: "How do I get my (xxx) to work properly...", that's a whole different thread and, is exactly the type this forum was designed for.

So, if we're going to keep the spirit of this forum alive and, move forward with what makes this forum worthwhile, timely and professional in it's manner then it's time for some altered thread management by both users and moderators.

One last thought: This forum is free to it's users; use it respectfully.
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Old July 16th, 2006, 11:51 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Robert Lane
If I remember correctly, the DVinfo.net mission is to share timely advice, tech tips, products reviews (from a users perspective, not a "wish I had one" or, "I think it's a bad idea" angle) and of course, share troubleshooting techniques and new methods of workflow.
Robert, you're making entirely too much sense to be hanging around here. :P
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Old July 16th, 2006, 12:09 PM   #27
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I own an HVX and two 4GB P2 cards. I used one on shoots well before I owned one. I use just about every camera imaginable on every scenario imaginable. I use it mainly for music videos, where the P2 workflow is perfect. I also use it in DV mode quite a bit. I cannot imagine shooting a doc on P2 and at this point, even interviews I would shun. Maybe I am in a unique situation but I often have projects that request changes months and even years later. I need source tapes. The other HUGE issue, is that you cannot capture P2 at a low rez and rebuild an uncompressed edit which is the workflow many use. Everything must be ingested at full rez and have a redundant RAID5 back-up. Having an external back-up is just not good enough. I lost an entire project when 2 RAIDs died (RAID 0s) that were backed up weekly. Come to find, the problem is all too common. P2 is great for some things but requires too many compromises for others... at least IMO.



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Old July 16th, 2006, 11:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jeff Kilgroe
Robert, you're making entirely too much sense to be hanging around here. :P
Could be. The hope is "too much sense" will become contagious and the forum will clear itself up.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 05:39 PM   #29
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I started filming my first music video with the HVX last night, I have only 1 4GB card, but I found it worked quite nicely.

I could put 10 minutes of HD footage on it, and when I ran low on space, dumped the footage to my powerbook w/ an external HDD attached.

When I got home, I made a copy of the P2 footage (P2 1 through P2 6) on my PC, then burned 2 DVDs of each card image. So I have a copy of the footage on my traveling external, one on my PC internal, a DVD which goes in storage, and another DVD which goes to my editor, who will make another copy on his hard drive.

Although this isn't an ideal solution, i like the 4 gig card because my single-layer dvd burner can burn a card to a DVD, and they'll hold for a few years at least on DVD. When I can upgrade to an 8 gig card, I'll get a dual-layer DVD burner, more external hard drives and storage space for my older hard drives.

Large-scale solid state is just around the corner (It was only a few years ago I remember getting my first 1 gigabyte platter-based HDD and thinking how big it was), so it's only a matter of storing it long enough to make it to a much more convenient and safe storage medium.

I don't know if P2 is the future or future-proof, but one of the reasons that I got this camera (sold my car for it, fresh out of college) was because the expanding solid-state memory market will mean that my camera will be relevant for years, it is a camera that has the potential to keep growing in usefulness over the years, instead of a camera that is released and immediately begins to obsolete itself.
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Old July 17th, 2006, 10:52 PM   #30
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My quip for the day: If you need a 32GB P2 card, you bought the wrong camera for your application.
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