HVX's big brother: HPX500

[Barry Green]

http://panasonic.biz/sav/p2/ag-hpx500/index.html

2/3" shoulder-mount, interchangeable lenses, 1080 & 720, variable frame rates, universal PAL/NTSC/50i/60i switchable, DV/DVCPRO25/DVCPRO50/DVCPRO-HD, HD-SDI, TC IN/OUT, Genlock...

[Greg Boston]

Interesting, Barry. This appears to be the camera touted as the HDPC-2000 that Panasonic announced at NAB this year. Unless I'm missing something, but the specs seem to be the same.

-gb-

[Nate Weaver]

At DVExpo, at the center "prototype table", Panasonic had 2 similar non-working samples.

Both were 2/3", both shot P2. The engineer (obviously from Japan) attempting to explain it to me said the one I was looking at was targeted for $20k. I walked away pretty impressed, and then spotted out of the corner of my eye the second unit, which he explained to me was the same thing, except better...using the new MPEG based codecs Panasonic has been talking about.

So one was the HPX500, and one was the 2000, I suppose?

Same market space as the XDCAM HD or a little higher, sounds like these will be very good cameras.

I imagine the 500 will have the same chips as the HDX-900...a very good setup but not quite like the XDCAM HD units.

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by Nate Weaver

I imagine the 500 will have the same chips as the HDX-900...a very good setup but not quite like the XDCAM HD units.

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options

XDCAM is however the only other native-tapeless system on the market today, which has it's benefits, but if you price what an XDCAM deck costs compared to the various options P2 offers, there's no contest in the bang-for-the-buck category. And if you price out an entire production and post hardware setup based on XDCAM needs you'll be spending a LOT more money than a similarly configured P2 system - not to mention spending more time in POST waiting for HDV renders.

There is one major feature option that the F350 offers that no other ENG cam does: AutoFocus. (requires special lens that mates to F350 controller)

We gave the F350 and the entire XDCAM system a serious look when considering which tapeless system to use; Sony has created it's niche with XDCAM and the bodies have impressive features, but not so impressive when compared to the Panny offerings.

[Robert Lane]

Barry,

If I read this right (as much as can be gleaned from a Japanese page) and this body will do over-under crank (the page mentions Varicam), then I've just found the perfect upgrade path from the HVX. Is this the same *approximate* release date as the HPX2100 and 16GB cards or is it slated for Q2/Q3?

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options

Well, thanks for trying to sell me on the Pana offerings, but I made my decision on these cameras a few months ago, if you look at my signature :-)

I'm sure the Pana will be a great camera, and will be perfect for some people. In the meantime, can we try not to paint it as "XDCAM bad, HPX good"?

[Chris Hurd]

Agreed, Nate -- folks, this is not an "XDCAM vs. P2" platform war. We have a dedicated forum for each format. Choose the one you like. We're not going to re-hash a very tired Ford vs. Chevy argument here. Please discuss the gear and how to use it. Leave the platform wars for other internet sites to battle over. Thanks in advance,

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

- The typical 4:2:0 HDV color space, not DVCPRO 4:2:2
- HDV workflow issues and render times
- Smaller chipset; less image real-estate, lower quality
- Fewer lens options

I'm sorry you took the time to write this, Robert. Your information is completely inaccurate.

You have fallen into that same notion as others and think that XDCAM HD is HDV. It's not. It's MP@HL. That's Main Profile @ High Level. The 35mbs data rate is a variable data rate, not fixed so higher motion frames get the majority of the bandwidth.

The 35mb codec is also accepted by Discovery HD for 'full, unlimited aquisition' of program material. HDV is allowed to be only a small portion of acquisition, regardless of delivery method.

And finally, let's remember one thing. There will be NO PLATFORM BASHING on DVINFO! If a particular system doesn't meet your needs, that's fine. But no need to come in and get into a 'my choice is better than your choice' debate.

-gb-

[Eric Peltier]

to get back to the Barry's original thread,
when is the HPX 500 will be available ?
sounds very interresting.

[Charles Perkins]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

And if you price out an entire production and post hardware setup based on XDCAM needs you'll be spending a LOT more money than a similarly configured P2 system

i'm sorry, but what about the cost of media and archival of the media, where was that in your budget?. XDCAM is cheap P2, is not.
and that fact that xdcam is certified by discovery for full aquisition, and (i might very well be wrong on this)DVCproHD is not?

[Jemore Santos]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

You're quite right, Nate. Not like the XDCAM system, better. The best XDCAM has to offer is only a 1/2" inch lens mount, not 2/3" inch and shoots HDV, not DVCPRO. That translates into:

I heard that there will be 2/3" cameras for the XDCAM HD next year.

Anyways back to the panny's are you sure they will be in there 20's? because it sounds like they are pretty dam cheap compared to the older digibetas back in the days

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Jemore Santos

Anyways back to the panny's are you sure they will be in there 20's? because it sounds like they are pretty dam cheap compared to the older digibetas back in the days

Jemore, the Panasonic press conference at NAB included an announcement of a camera dubbed the AJ-HDC2000 which is a P2 only, 2/3, shoulder mount camera shooting HD with a body price targeted around $26K, just slightly higher than the F350 body.

-gb-

[Barry Green]

Two different products, but I don't know what all there is to know about both of 'em.

They're both 2/3", they're both P2/DVCPRO-HD.

The HPC2100 (or HPC2000?) is 24p/30p/60i in 1080 & 720, and can take the AVC-Intra optional codec card. No VFR, as far as I know.

The HPX500 appears to be a 2/3" HVX. It has variable frame rates, and all the modes of the HVX (so 720 and 1080 @24p, 30p, & 60i/60p, plus 720pN, plus DVCPRO50 etc). And it's a world camera, switchable between PAL & NTSC; I don't believe the HPC2100 is.

I don't really know why the HPC2100 should cost more than the HPX500; it looks like the 500 does everything the 2100 does and a whole lot more (perhaps short of the AVC-Intra option?)

As far as availability, the press release said something about April 2007, but until we see a press release in native English I wouldn't be too sure about the exact meaning of any of those statements.

[Nate Weaver]

I asked the engineer babysitting the two non-working units, saying "So maybe the better one has higher-res chips?"

He laughed and threw up his hands and said "I cannot say!" (more or less, his english was fledgling)

The HDX/HPX's only concessions to the price seem to be the use of 1280x720 chips (that's a guess on the HPX, obviously). Seems Sony has decided smaller, high res chips is their bet, while Pana thinks bigger, lower res chips is the ticket. Other than those issues, the cams occupy the same market space.

Both the HDX and F350 make awesome pics. When I realized that cheaper full size HD cams were coming a couple years ago (cheaper than $80k+), I always assumed the mid range was where we'd see it first ($50-60k-ish). All this is a very exciting progression.

[Robert Lane]

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

There will be NO PLATFORM BASHING on DVINFO! If a particular system doesn't meet your needs, that's fine. But no need to come in and get into a 'my choice is better than your choice' debate.-gb-

Hey, Nate started it! (big laughs) The "...not quite like the XDCAM HD units." dig got me fuzzed and had to repond to that one...

Seriously, no bashing was intended; clearly there is misinformation on both sides as we could debate the realities of XDCAM vs. DVCPRO for hours. In the end, we both have what we want.

I respect you guys have chosen the F350 (and I almost did until I learned it doesn't shoot HD-CAM), so I'll leave it at that.