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Old February 5th, 2007, 07:27 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Winter
Yes thats about $80,000 more than my HVX set-up.
At the price points of the HVX you have to look at the
system. Does it work? Does it deliver results?
Can I produce better work than what I was using?
The whole argument about what is better is kinda moot.
I paid $36,000 for my first BetaCam in 1985. It was obsolete
when BetaSP came out. Then it was DigiBeta, then DVCAM
then 16:9......P2 is here and now and plenty of people are using
it with obsolete G4 laptops....
In a few years we will probably get HD on a 4 gig affordable
flash card....
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Old February 5th, 2007, 09:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Robert Lane
...and you're still talking about tape and spinning disc media, not solid-state tapeless. End of that story.
If you read what I wrote again you'll see I said that standard flash memory is what will take over what P2 started, but at more affordable prices. Tape and HDD recording are the current affordable recording options and are much more widely used than P2 for that reason, but will probably give way eventually to flash. P2 is mainly useful for high-end purposes for companies with deep pockets, and will not get beyond that before flash moves in.
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Old February 5th, 2007, 09:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Mike Schrengohst
In a few years we will probably get HD on a 4 gig affordable flash card....
You mean like Panasonic announced today?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85746
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Old February 5th, 2007, 10:00 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw
If you read what I wrote again you'll see I said that standard flash memory is what will take over what P2 started, but at more affordable prices. Tape and HDD recording are the current affordable recording options and are much more widely used than P2 for that reason, but will probably give way eventually to flash. P2 is mainly useful for high-end purposes for companies with deep pockets, and will not get beyond that before flash moves in.
Time will tell and I'm anxious to see exactly how things develop. With RED shaking up the entire industry you can bet that people in both Sony and Panny houses are watching closely just whose concepts are getting more traction - and which producers find more cost-effective/useful/etc.

Here's something that will throw a monkey wrench in the entire media/camera/format scenario:

P+S Technik the makers of the Mini-35 makes what they call a "Directors Finder" which is a Mini-35 scaled down to work with Handycam-form factor DV cameras and use the same lenses and give the same shallow DOF capabilities. Now, what would happen if you took that exact setup and adapted it to work with the newly announced AVCHD Panny cameras? Just how good looking would footage be - with good lighting/composition - from that "non-pro" rig? And how easy will the footage be to edit using the new codec/format?

I plan to find out.
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Old February 5th, 2007, 10:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw
You mean like Panasonic announced today?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=85746
Yes, I didn't know that was posted.

http://panasonic.biz/sav/news/070117/AG-HSC1U.jpg
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Old February 5th, 2007, 10:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane
The Firestore is a third-party device and again can't be compared to solid-state media. And both the crossover and adaptablility comparison is made within the same-brand config. There is no other media native-to-the-brand system that works with both the handheld and ENG-type bodies.
Thank goodness for third party devices! It is what pushes the limits and the markets! I'm certainly not constrained by "same-brand" restraints. I am not concerned with staying "native-to-the-brand!" "Handheld and ENG-type" does not matter to me. What does is cost, usability and viability in the future. The Panasonic camera is great, small sensor and pixil shift or whatever there is and all! Great image! I am not knocking the camera or the company, period! My only statement is best described as "P2 is too expensive, too small, and not going to survive the future developments in memory storage." I commend Panasonic for their efforts in paving the way to the future, BUT, all on their own it is not going to make it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane
Mike - the F900 doesn't shoot HDV, it's shoots HDCAM, DVCAM or DV (?). The HVX shoots every codec/format it's bigger P2 brothers do, no other system can match that. The F330/350 shoots HDV, but at a different bitrate than the Z1/FX1 and it's a totally different media - discs, not tape. No crossover.
You can't knock all other cameras and manufactures just by saying they can't shoot the same format as the Pani. Why is Panasonic the only right or correct camera? It is not! I got into my Canon XLH1 because I had many accessories for it and the XL system. It may not be the best camera in its nitch market, but it was the best for me at this time! I had a 16x manual lens and a 3x lens for it, many batteries and tons of other accessories! I would not make a claim that it is the best camera in its class, but it was the best for me. MiniDV may not be the best, but it is the best for me right now.

You are basically saying that the Panasonic camera is best because of the P2 system. That simply is not true! And, when or if P2 does not pan out and become cheap enough for all to use, it will be a big problem. Can you say orphan! Sorry, but it could be just that bad.

When I see P2 card slots in the new Sony's, JVC's and Canon's I will agree with you and jump on board. But, I think I can keep my legs curled up on my couch.

Sorry, but I am not knocking Panasonic or its camera, but I just don't think P2 is the furture you think it is.

Mike
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Old February 5th, 2007, 10:34 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane
Here's something that will throw a monkey wrench in the entire media/camera/format scenario:

P+S Technik the makers of the Mini-35 makes what they call a "Directors Finder"
Here's a link: http://www.pstechnik.de/en/digitalfilm-vdf35.php

I see that they've had this since 2001: http://www.tvtechnology.com/features...o-Awards.shtml

Any idea of the price? And will it handle Nikon lenses? The site says "Available mounts: Arri PL, Panavision, Bayonet and BNC-R", but I don't know what I would need to do to get from here to there.
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Old February 5th, 2007, 11:26 PM   #38
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Mike, it's not about the "which system/camera" is better nonsense, because that's all about personal preference, shooting style, typical production needs etc. My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility. You've made it plainly clear time and again you're not a P2 "believer" for lack of a better term, which makes no difference one way or the other to me, but even just from a non-predjuidicial viewpoint you have to admire Panny's aggressive launch towards a platform that many - like yourself - just don't get. Sony went through (and is still fighting unbelievers) on XDCAM and I'm sure RED is dealing with the same resistance to it's bold approach.

It is what it is - "that's my story and I'm sticking to it".

Jon,

I don't know the pricing for the finder, but logic dictates it can't be near the $10k starting price for the Mini-35. I just really enjoy the idea of a palm-sized camera having film-like DOF - and shooting HD to solid-state media no less. That just make me giddy.
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Old February 5th, 2007, 11:40 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ben Winter
Holy shneikies!

When did that happen??? Cool though, didn't know they sold it. Not that I'm planning to buy one.
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Old February 5th, 2007, 11:49 PM   #40
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Please stop with this "solid state" thing. as soon as you eject that card out and pop it into your old G4. disks start to whirl around and move your media. after you have moved your footage over to some sort of consumer harddrive you then wipe your footage from the "solid state" device and push it back into the camera slot. I bet I can drop a whole box of XD disks and not worry about a single frame. Can you say that about your ext fire wire drive?
Also any Panasonic P2 deck with the same functions as the XD deck is gonna run about the same price.
And how does Panasonic tell you to archive your project " just lay it back to tape" or "burn it to disk."
Why don't you just "burn it to disk " at the start and skip all of those other steps.
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Old February 6th, 2007, 12:21 AM   #41
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Then again, I don't do a hand held fight scene with a G4, and most people don't edit with XD discs.

IF your camera is in rough conditions, then solid state makes a difference - that is IF you have enough capacity to store your stuff before moving the video to a hard drive.

But that's the deal isn't it? One person's workflow works well with P2 cards, while the next person's doesn't. If P2 isn't right for your workflow, then don't use it! If P2 is right for somebody else's workflow, don't knock it...
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Old February 6th, 2007, 07:25 AM   #42
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Let's call it a day...

So the original question - will 16gb cards be avaialble this year - has been answered many times over and in the process this thread has taken on a life of it's own.

We've all debated methods, tech and pondered the future, let's put this thread to rest and consider the question answered - and then some. End of thread.

Chris?
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Old February 6th, 2007, 07:58 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Robert Lane
My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility.
That's fine, but the point you're missing is that P2 is old news and will soon be upstaged by non-P2 flash memory solutions - even within the Panasonic brand line. As is often the case, expensive technologies tend to lose out to more affordable solutions unless there's a compelling reason for the expensive option to become mainstream, which P2 doesn't have. P2 pointed the way to a flash-based future but won't be the method of implementing that for most of us.
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Old February 6th, 2007, 09:49 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Robert Lane
Mike, it's not about the "which system/camera" is better nonsense, because that's all about personal preference, shooting style, typical production needs etc. My point about P2 is that for what it is and what it can do within just one brand of camera nothing else matches it's performance, robustness or versatility.
I never made a comment on which camera or system is better. My comments have been directed toward the P2 system, or more specifically the cards themselves. Your statements are about a specific camera/system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Lane
You've made it plainly clear time and again you're not a P2 "believer" for lack of a better term, which makes no difference one way or the other to me, but even just from a non-predjuidicial viewpoint you have to admire Panny's aggressive launch towards a platform that many - like yourself - just don't get.
Robert, you obviously take this personally, or at least it does "make a difference to you one way or the other." That's why this will be my last post on this topic.

I do admire Panasonic's attempt to introduce a new system! Again and again I have said that I don't dislike the system or the cameras! What I have said is that the lack of real progress in increasing card size and reducing card cost is going to keep it from being adopted as a standard except within Panisonic's own systems. Something or someone will jump in with another system or another storage media. That's my opinion...

Whatever system or systems or media does finally take root and stick, has one other big obstical to overcome and it this is a real toughie! Are you ready for this: The price must eventually come down low enough for us to be able to record on the media and stick on the shelf and keep it!!!!!!! That price can be a lot more than what a MiniDV tape costs now, but no where near what a P2 card costs. Having that footage on your hard drive and loosing it will hurt bigtime. Remember those drives with all of the moving parts and things to go wrong, whirling discs and shock vulnerable and all the other things we have said about them in the thread!?!? Yup, they do fail. I had a drive fail last week and lost some of my footage from DVC#7. That was the one I won! I normally keep my tapes, but since I only used a couple of minutes on the tape, I reused it. My error, my fault, but it points out a problem that any new solid state media will have. That is the loss of the original footage everytime you must reuse the card. We will accept that risk for now, but eventually we will want something to keep. Even at say a hundred bucks a card, you could afford to put them away and keep it if you have something special. But not at $1,200 a card, and only a few minutes. Panasonic should be selling the cards as low as possible, which may indeed be the case. You don't want to use the printer system, where they will basically give you the printer if you just buy their ink cartriges.

My last statement is what I was trying to say, maybe poorly, in the beginning. The problem with the P2 system right now is one of card size and card price. One is way too small and the other is way to large. When that is reversed, then we will have a system to move forward with.

I"m done, and sorry if this got too far out.

Mike
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Last edited by Mike Teutsch; February 6th, 2007 at 10:40 AM.
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Old February 6th, 2007, 10:34 AM   #45
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I think, IMHO, that P2 is a great idea , no capture time - can fail tho. Tape has all the capture time issues associated with it - can fail tho. The DTD devices, like P2 get around the capture issuses - can fail tho....

I would love to use P2, but didn't have the budget to stretch for a laptop to offload P2's in the field. Of all the formats, I think this one is the best. IMO. In a way I'm glad I didn't go with P2 a year ago, as I'd be equally frustrated about the P2 size/price ratio as many in this thread are. As for DTD's they are simply over-priced hard drives.

We'll all laugh someday when a 250gb P2 card will be bought for $150. A few years ago who'd a thought we'd be buying 750gb hard drives for around $150 today!!

It seems that there are no correct/perfect solutions. Go with what suits you now that you should go with.

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