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Photo for HD Video (D-SLR and others)
HD from Nikon D90, other still photo cams (except EOS 5D Mk. II, LUMIX GH1).


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Old March 26th, 2009, 04:28 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Stephen van Vuuren View Post
Screen size - what we tolerate on an a small laptop window is very different from a 60" Plasma.
Well no, in those days playback from my Elph was cabled into a 31" CRT in the living room. It was always much better to fill the screen at 15fps than to use only a quarter of it at 30fps.

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Thrilled? That's pretty strong. Maybe "excited" when they see the specs but unlikely when they see it on their TV.
They'll be excited when they see it on their TV. It's a two-megapixel image twenty times per second. They'll be quite happy with it. That is, if they shoot properly (always the real trick no matter what).

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... only the most nearly blind people cannot tell 30fps from 20fps. So they may get all excited about 1080p - until they shoot it and decide 720p at 30fps results in much more pleasing video.
You're right in that it's easy to tell 30fps from 20fps, but 20fps isn't anymore "unwatchable" than 24fps is (the most badly used frame rate ever -- not by filmmakers, of course, but by Joe Average -- to shoot in 24p should require passing a practical exam). 20fps certainly isn't great; but done with care it'll probably be no less tolerable than 24p (done without care and it'll be just as bad as 24p). The trouble, obviously, will be getting people to do video with care, no matter what the frame rate is.

I think there will be some folks with 1080 sets who will choose to shoot video with this camera in 720, and some folks with 1080 sets who will choose to shoot in 1080. It's not going to go all one way or all the other.

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90% of that market will shoot handheld and the 1080p handheld clip I watched on fullscreen 17" laptop was really unpleasant with the jerks and stutters with the rolling shutter to boot.
I thought the handheld clip from Gizmodo was no more annoying than any other handheld samples I've seen, but I'm not getting any jerks or stutters from it or from Rob Galbraith's clips. This is with the latest version of QuickTime from a 2.5GHz quad-core Intel with 4GB of RAM and a 256MB video card and a 22" HD display at full screen. Not exactly a spectacular system. My laptop is a 2.2GHz dual-core Intel with 3GB of RAM and a 128MB video card, and it will not drive 1080 video, unfortunately, without a lot of stutter (edit: I mean *this* 1080; my laptop can handle 1080 AVCHD up to 17mbps or so).

Comparing the same angles Galbraith took of Grand Central Station and 42nd Street at both 720 and 1080, yes, I can clearly see the difference in frame rate but no it's not what I would dismiss as unusable, not by a long shot...
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Old March 26th, 2009, 05:07 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Comparing the same angles Galbraith took of Grand Central Station and 42nd Street at both 720 and 1080, yes, I can clearly see the difference in frame rate but no it's not what I would dismiss as unusable, not by a long shot...
Ahh, somehow I missed these Galbraith shots earlier today. Now these look much better than the other stuff I've seen. Better than anything I've gotten out of my D90 (at 720) but I still don't really like the 20fps.

Anyone want to buy a lightly used D90? I'm willing to give up the 24p for a better codec. I'm about sick of having almost good footage out of my little D90 but having it held back by an iffy codec and or bitrate whichever is the culprit. I do however like the way the D90 handles highlights and color... maybe someone can cross breed a Canon and Nikon?
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Old March 26th, 2009, 05:24 PM   #93
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Ahh, somehow I missed these Galbraith shots earlier today. Now these look much better than the other stuff I've seen.
Well, sure they're just locked-down shots, but a lot of what you see there is Galbraith. Here's what I propose: a side-by-side D-SLR video shoot-out, a Rebel T1i at 1080p20, a second Rebel T1i at 720p30, a Nikon D90 at 720p24, and a 5D Mk. II at 1080p30. Identical settings as much as auto will allow, pointed at the same shot. I think that would be interesting. Wait until June to do this and throw in the GH1.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 06:27 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Chris Hurd View Post
Here's what I propose: a side-by-side D-SLR video shoot-out, a Rebel T1i at 1080p20, a second Rebel T1i at 720p30, a Nikon D90 at 720p24, and a 5D Mk. II at 1080p30. Identical settings as much as auto will allow, pointed at the same shot. I think that would be interesting. Wait until June to do this and throw in the GH1.
I'd PAY to see results from that shoot-out. Great suggestion, sir.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 07:43 PM   #95
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Having an articulating screen on an HD capable interchangeable lens camera is a huge benefit. In many concerts its best to have a camera that has excellent lowlight capabilities and holding a Z1u on top of your head for a long time because of people in front of you can be a little bit difficult. I would much rather prefer doing that with a GH1.

Anyway there is a workaround that you can use for the T1i and the 5D Mark II. You may or may not think it’s the best solution but you got to admit it’s still a good idea nonetheless, as long as you don’t cause any accidents.
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Old March 26th, 2009, 10:25 PM   #96
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Nathan, I agree with everything you said. I'd even push what you said a little further. I think we're right around the corner from a camera that will be even more significant than the VX1000. A cam that levels the playing field for a long time. Tapeless. Shallow DOF. Over and under cranking. Exposure control--all for a reasonable price. I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting. I say a year-and-a-half and we'll have it.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 07:55 AM   #97
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As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not saying 20fps is acceptable for us under any circumstance (it isn't). I'm proposing that the majority of folks out there who buy this thing will be happy to have 1080 video at any frame rate. For a significant percentage of them, this will be their first way to record 1080 video. A big chunk of the Rebel's market probably does not own an HD camcorder and has no plans to buy one.
I don't know about that. A significant percentage (that will use the video feature at all) may well have an HV10/20/30 or one of the many Sony HDV flavors already. These things have been on the market for three years now. When they pull 1080/20p off this thing and try to stick it into iMovie or Pinnacle, it's not going to be pretty.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 08:33 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Matt Buys View Post
Nathan, I agree with everything you said. I'd even push what you said a little further. I think we're right around the corner from a camera that will be even more significant than the VX1000. A cam that levels the playing field for a long time. Tapeless. Shallow DOF. Over and under cranking. Exposure control--all for a reasonable price. I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting. I say a year-and-a-half and we'll have it.
You're going to wait for a year and a half? that's like... forever!

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Originally Posted by Jason Lowe
I don't know about that. A significant percentage (that will use the video feature at all) may well have an HV10/20/30 or one of the many Sony HDV flavors already. These things have been on the market for three years now. When they pull 1080/20p off this thing and try to stick it into iMovie or Pinnacle, it's not going to be pretty.
If I can be of assistance... the footage from my 5Dmark2 makes the footage from my HV20, HVX200, and HD100 look like shit. No question. It's no stretch that the Rebel's video will look very, very similar to the 5D2's. I think the actual image quality will make up for the lack of temporal resolution in 1080.

Most importantly, this is going to save people having both a SLR and a camcorder, which to most people is more imporant than having 24p/30p (since your average soccer mom doesn't know/care what that is, and just wants to be able to take some video clips of her kids to show the grandparents).
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Old March 27th, 2009, 08:56 AM   #99
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I wonder how many of us are sitting on the sidelines waiting.
If you're waiting, you're not creating.

The single worst excuse for sitting on the sidelines is "the cameras aren't good enough yet." That's complete nonsense, of course. It's a horrible mentality. We're currently living among an embarrassment of riches with regard to the quality and sheer affordability of digital media content creation... we've been there for several years now.

So much remarkable material has been created with "lesser" equipment and technology that came before. The limitlessness and the limitations don't come from the gear or the technology... they come from the people who are using it. Anyone who says they can't use what's available right now isn't ever going to be able to use anything.

The "right camera" is the one that works, the one you can get your hands on right now this minute.

Not picking on anyone in particular here... this attitude that "the gear isn't good enough yet" is a mental block, a self-imposed barrier to creativity and free expression that affects a lot of people. I don't know of any cure, I just try to tackle it with tough love. Get off your ass and start shooting. Walk away from this web site, pick up a cheap $200 digicam and go outdoors and make photographs and little movies.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 09:22 AM   #100
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If I can be of assistance... the footage from my 5Dmark2 makes the footage from my HV20, HVX200, and HD100 look like shit. No question. It's no stretch that the Rebel's video will look very, very similar to the 5D2's. I think the actual image quality will make up for the lack of temporal resolution in 1080.
My bad. I meant the programs will choke on the non standard 20p video, not the quality of the video itself.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 09:42 AM   #101
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My bad. I meant the programs will choke on the non standard 20p video, not the quality of the video itself.
I totally agree with you on that one!
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Old March 27th, 2009, 09:43 AM   #102
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Not picking on anyone in particular here... this attitude that "the gear isn't good enough yet" is a mental block, a self-imposed barrier to creativity and free expression that affects a lot of people. I don't know of any cure, I just try to tackle it with tough love. Get off your ass and start shooting. Walk away from this web site, pick up a cheap $200 digicam and go outdoors and make photographs and little movies.
Or you could....

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/dv-challe...up-thread.html
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Old March 27th, 2009, 09:47 AM   #103
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I don't know about that. A significant percentage (that will use the video feature at all) may well have an HV10/20/30 or one of the many Sony HDV flavors already. These things have been on the market for three years now. When they pull 1080/20p off this thing and try to stick it into iMovie or Pinnacle, it's not going to be pretty.
I've edited stuff captured at 15fps in iMovie and it didn't get upset. I doubt there'd be significant problems with 20 fps (QuickTime happily takes different frame rates and does it's best to convert them to match.)

That said, if I got a Rebel, I *think* I'd primarily shoot in 720p.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 10:24 AM   #104
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The "right camera" is the one that works, the one you can get your hands on right now this minute.
Exactly. I'd love a perfect digital cinema camera - there isn't one yet. I think Scarlet may be what I'm looking for, but best case scenario by the time it's readily available I'll have shot 5 or more incredible looking shorts on my 5DmkII, despite all of it's 'limitations'.

It's not just that if you're waiting, you're not creating - if you aren't shooting, you aren't improving (couldn't think of a catchy way to make it rhyme). I know that every film I shoot now will contribute far more to the quality of the films I make in the future than whatever camera I end up shooting them on.

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That said, if I got a Rebel, I *think* I'd primarily shoot in 720p.
Right - remember this is a competitor to the D90. 1080p makes for a nice marketing item in a feature list, but when it comes down to it this should be a great 720p camera while the D90 isn't. If you'd like the image and compression quality of the 5D but can't afford it this is a much better alternative to the D90 for now.
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Old March 27th, 2009, 11:30 AM   #105
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Sorry for rambling, but it just hurts every time ;) You are discussing that 20p is not good enough, ok lets take the lower res 30p option. Where, where, where are our 25p? We have good money here that converts to Yen at a favourable rate.
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