Kino Flow or Arri? - Page 3 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Photon Management

Photon Management
Shine an ever-loving light on you.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 1st, 2008, 10:58 AM   #31
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,068
One point that nobody has brought up in this thread (surprisingly) is that Lowels for the most part are open face lights while most of the Arris and Moles that we are discussing are Fresnel instruments. If you are a newbie, this won't mean much to you but basically open faced lights have a harsher light quality than a light passed through a Fresnel lens.

A Fresnel light can be focused and many of us feel that the lenses and lens material used by the various manufacturers lens a different quality to the light, hence when I line up an Arri 650, a Mole 650 and a DeSisti 650, all Frsenels and focus them all on the wall next to each other, I will notice significant differences in the throw, pattern, softness, etc. Perhaps even the color temp slightly.

Bottom line is that open faced lights are harder to control, especially for a newbie without proper grip gear like solids, nets, scrims, etc. Open face lights are superior for sheer, raw output at the same wattage as a Fresnel and open face lights are superior to use in a Chimera, because you don't want to focus the light in a softbox very much typically. This is why some of the kits have both Fresnels and open face lights, the open face is designed for the included Chimera while the Fresnels are designed for other purposes like throwing up patterns and lighting up BGs.

Lowel lights are not bad but are not constructed as well as Arris, Moles, Kinos.

My advice, even though it is difficult for newbies, is to build your own lighting kit. All in one kits are just an average compendium of stuff that is supposed to work for most situations, most of the time. The best kits are the ones custom made for your shooting situations. There are a few links on the web from guys who have assembled their own kits. I have an Arri kit as well as a lot of other lights and I even end up assembling my own because rarely do I use everything in the Arri kit and I often need things that are not in the Arri kit, other lights, modifiers, etc.

There is/was an Arri Softbank IV used on the DVX User Marketplace yesterday, not sure if it is sold yet.

Good luck,

Dan
Dan Brockett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2008, 02:14 PM   #32
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Brockett View Post
One point that nobody has brought up in this thread (surprisingly) is that Lowels for the most part are open face lights while most of the Arris and Moles that we are discussing are Fresnel instruments.
Lowel makes fresnels and Arri Redheads are open faced so this statement COULD be a bit misleading to "newbies".

A fresnel fixture has a glass lens with concentric "rings" on the front of it which help to focus and align the light emitted from the hot filament contained in a vacuum which produces the light. No ringed glass lens, it's not a fresnel.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 1st, 2008, 08:21 PM   #33
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Shenzhen, China
Posts: 781
Dan said "for the most part." Its only considered misleading if you miss that.

He's right in that pretty much all of the standard or ubiquitous Lowel kits are open-faced lights and newbies are interested in kits quite often. Lowel fresnels (or "Fren-L" as they call it) are not even prominently displayed at dealers of Lowel gear. Has anyone out there even seen one of these? I know they exist but I've never seen one in use. No where near as common as a Mole or Arri type. In addition, a fresnel is not just a fresnel because it has a "fresnel" concentric circle lens on it, it also includes a focusing mechanism too. The focusing mechanism allows you to create a wide or narrow spot beam. A fresnel is in the spotlight class of fixtures. An open face is in the flood light category. Any studio lighting will fall into one of those two categories. They all have their place for various uses.

Definitely sounds like you want more hard lights than soft lights for the work you want to do. Well-defined shadows and throw or projection are what you need.

As far as open faced or fresnel type fixtures, IMHO, there is very little to separate any open faced tungsten fixture from a halogen worklight. Perhaps there's a focusing mechanism (but just as likely there won't be) or perhaps there are barndoors but when you get right down to it they are both open faced lights. It's the barndoors or focusing mechanism that add hundreds of dollars in some cases to the price as the "value-added" to justify that. The "pro" version may also have a 3200K bulb whereas the worklight has a 2800K (or so) bulb. The bulb can easily be replaced with a color correct version though.

For shear throw, hard light output and focusing capability, a fresnel or "spot" type instrument is better bang for the buck, offers more control, and you can find them from so many different manufacturers both new and used. Used can be a very good value for a "newbie." Don't ignore building a kit from used gear. Ebay is a good resource for finding used fixtures. Just watch the feedback ratings of the various sellers and compile a list of questions to ask them to make sure they have included all the proper information. Example questions would be:

- Does it include barndoors?
- Does it include scrims?
- Have you tested and verified the instruments and all their accessories are working?
- Does it include bulbs?
- Are there baby stand to yoke adapters on the yokes and is all mounting hardware included?
- Is the wiring in good condition (visibly)?
etc.

Also, something like our well-appreciated, Cool Lights CL-MF0150 metal halide fresnel is an interesting choice in that it is daylight or tungsten colored with just the change of a bulb, draws only 150w but puts out 650w worth of light and comes in a fresnel package. It's not quite in HMI class because it doesn't do hot restart but it gives all the other advantages of HMI without the huge price differences. This is quite a unique offering in the market. Metal halide/HMI is kind of the "fluorescent of hard lights" as I call it thanks to its energy efficiency and also while the bulb and fixture get quite hot, the beam output of such a fixture doesn't have the infrared component in it that a tungsten fixture does. As you'll find out, tungsten is quite an efficient heater and in fact tungsten elements are used in heaters.

http://www.coollights.biz/clmf0150-c...snel-p-63.html
__________________
Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114
http://www.coollights.biz
Richard Andrewski is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2008, 12:30 AM   #34
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,068
Oh boy, here we ago again with the "misleading" accusation. Shaun, I never mislead anyone, why would I? You saw it Richard, that's exactly why I wrote "for the most part".

I don't think Lowel exactly hit a home run with the Fren-L, just like you Richard, I have yet to see anyone actually shoot with one although I have seen them in magazines and at NAB at the Lowel booth. The consensus is that they perform okay but are way overpriced for what you get. They are expensive, not built as well as some other industry standard lights so why bother?

Shaun, no offense, but if you want to split hairs, there is no such thing as an Arri Redhead, Redheads were and are made only by Ianiro, not Arri, although an Arrilite 600 or 1k open face is for all intents and purposes very similar to an Ianiro 800 or 1k Redhead http://www.ianirouk.com/redhead_fibre.html but it's not the same thing. Your post is a bit misleading ;-)

So far all practical purposes, almost all Lowel kits are NOT going to include Fren-Ls and when you speak Lowels to those in the industry, they will instantly think about Omnis and Totas. They have their uses but are pretty difficult for inexperienced users to control.

Richard, when can we buy the CDM-150s? They have been "available soon" for ages. I would like to try one, they sound like a pretty neat little light.

Thanks,

Dan
Dan Brockett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2008, 10:50 AM   #35
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia (formerly Winnipeg, Manitoba) Canada
Posts: 4,087
Richard and Dan of course are absolutely correct and I apologize if my comment offended you, Dan.

Dan is also correct in stating that Redheads are made by Ianiro (I own four of them). However, colloquially, open face lighting instruments of that style are often referred to as "redheads", just as XLR audio connectors are sometimes referred to as "Cannon" connectors, even if made by Switchcraft or Neutrik.
__________________
Shaun C. Roemich Road Dog Media - Vancouver, BC - Videographer - Webcaster
www.roaddogmedia.ca Blog: http://roaddogmedia.wordpress.com/
Shaun Roemich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2008, 10:52 AM   #36
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,259
Hey folks, omnis and totas are the lowels of yesterday.

Please note that the lowel discussion has focused (sorry) on the Pro and Rifa fixtures. Granted, most people think about those beat-up omni/tota kits they used in school, but if you haven't used a Pro or a Rifa you're missing out on a couple of great fixtures.

The pro is half-way between a mini-cool and a fresnel. The Rifa is the best compact softbox going, for my values.

An open-face fixture has its uses, cheap, somewhat controllable, usually with diffusion or a reflector. Why dedicate a fresnel to this use, when an open-face instrument will do it for less? I'd configure a kit with 1 or 2 arrilite, and 2 or 3 Arri 650 fresnels... but I fly so often I wouldn't have it on half the shoots. Lowel seems to work out much better for lightweight equipment.
Seth Bloombaum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2008, 12:32 PM   #37
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Los Angeles, California
Posts: 2,068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
Richard and Dan of course are absolutely correct and I apologize if my comment offended you, Dan.

Dan is also correct in stating that Redheads are made by Ianiro (I own four of them). However, colloquially, open face lighting instruments of that style are often referred to as "redheads", just as XLR audio connectors are sometimes referred to as "Cannon" connectors, even if made by Switchcraft or Neutrik.
No worries ;-)

Yes, I know that Redhead has become a term like "Coke" or "Kleenex", a brand item that has become so ubiquitous that it becomes a general term.

Dan
Dan Brockett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 2nd, 2008, 05:25 PM   #38
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Shenzhen, China
Posts: 781
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Brockett View Post
Richard, when can we buy the CDM-150s? They have been "available soon" for ages. I would like to try one, they sound like a pretty neat little light.
Hehe. That's my fault generally. Everything revolves around a production cycle and shipment at the end of it to get the products back to the states. I keep adding things to a shipment to load it up to the maximum so the container goes at as full as possible, and sometimes those extra things are a bit delayed beyond what I thought they would be. The 150's are on the way now though and should be in by end of June unless there's an unscheduled stop for maintenance or whatever on the boat they are on.
__________________
Richard Andrewski - Cool Lights USA - RED #114
http://www.coollights.biz
Richard Andrewski is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Photon Management

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network