Various lighting questions & answers from 2004

Douglas Akers · October 15th, 2004, 10:53 PM

Hey all, this is my first post in the photon forum.
I was just looking for some feedback about my recent horror movie shoot.
We had a lot of outdoor night time shots and it was very challenging.
Our no budget lighting rig consisted of a 1000w metal halide that we modified and a couple of cheapo 500w quartz smith victors.
Camera was a xv2000 with anamorphic lens.
The pics are screen grabs that have been resized and compressed.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...5/f6a0e8a1.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...1/f6a0e896.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...9/f6a0e898.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...6/f6a0e89d.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...d/f6a0e89a.jpg

Here's a pic of the MH rig.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...0/f6a0dcc2.jpg

Gints Klimanis · November 3rd, 2004, 10:29 PM

Hi,

I'm comparing MovieTone fluorescent lights with Kino Flo.
I have some cheapie Sylvania 3500K lamps (75 CRI) that are to
be replaced with something better. MovieTone claims to be
the same as Kino Flo :

http://www.flo-co.com/flo-co.html

"Movie Tone lamps are color correct and have no Green Spike. The High Output Lamps or H.O.'s are an excellent replacement
lamps for your Kino Flo fixtures. They match the Kino
Flo output in every way and include the Impact resistant
safety shield. "

However, a click on the spectral chart of the Kino Flo "True Match"
lamps reveals, guess what, a big green spike :

http://www.kinoflo.com/sales_catalog_2004/lamps/001_lmp/truematch.html

and the spectral plot :
http://www.kinoflo.com/sales_catalog_2004/lamps/001_lmp/kf3200.html

So, what lamps are actually compared ? Do the MovieTone lamps have the big green spike ? Are MovieTone actually better than TrueMatch ?

Thanks for any info,

Gints

Gints Klimanis · November 4th, 2004, 02:57 PM

Ok. Here's the reply from FloCo, the makers of the MovieTone bulbs :

The H.O. 32K are very similar to Kino Flos KF32 lamp in both color temp and brightness.

When we say there is no green spike it is meant in reference to motion picture film photography, which can be very sensitive to the green value in fluorescent lamps.
We only put enough green in the lamp to make it color correct. But it is easy in a high output lamp to have excessive green that will result in a green hue on the negative.

Hope this helps.

Thank you

Ferdinand Metz
The Fluorescent Company Inc.
Flo-Co Inc.
661 269 2065

Gints Klimanis · November 8th, 2004, 06:01 AM

Hello,

I have little experience vtaping performers on a stage. I read a lot of good posts on this forum about influencing the stage lighting for video recording, but I didn't see many solutions from the camera side.

This weekend, I attended a stage Chinese performance at San Francisco'sPalace of Fine arts. The front stage lights were nearly spotlights and created strong specular highlights on the bare-headed actors and their shiny silk garments, especially the white
garment on the lead actress. On my digital camera histogram, the highlights were always pushing the right edge, leaving the midtone details on the actors largely in the shadows. The gap between the highlights and midtones was HUGE. What do you do for such lighting conditions ? Would a polarizing filter help ? That may help some of the glare from a perspiring bare scalp, but probably nothing for siky garments. On a still camera, I can rotate the filter around a bit, but since the actors duck in and out of the spotlights, it's a chore ! Are there any solutions
from the camera/video side ?

Boyd Ostroff · November 8th, 2004, 07:15 AM

This is the essence of the problem with filming many stage shows and I don't think there's much you can do. My approach is to shoot a lot of tight shots such that I can expose to keep things from blowing out a lot. You need to ride the iris control. Then you can edit in some brief wide shots where you allow the bright areas to blow out more. Do what you can in post to bring out some detail in the shadows.

The trouble is that we theatrical lighting designers use the huge contrast range that you describe to create dramatic effects on the stage. There is just no way that DV can deal with that.

James Emory · November 27th, 2004, 03:11 PM

www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h2/temp.shtml

http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic1/240ctemp.htm

www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm

www.cybercollege.com/tvp028.htm

Chris Hurd · December 3rd, 2004, 11:06 PM

Excellent -- thanks James,

Carlos E. Martinez · December 17th, 2004, 04:55 PM

Are there any interesting places in NY where I can try findind some used light heads? Lowel or similar?

Names please!

Carlos

Benjamin Palmer · December 27th, 2004, 08:35 PM

you might want to try reading the classifieds (or posting) on craigslist.com
http://newyork.craigslist.org/
you can post in the wanted section, or poke through the ads...
good deals there and will be local to nyc. otherwise, check b&h photo they have quality used equipment sometimes

Gints Klimanis · December 31st, 2004, 04:36 PM

Hi,

On the Nikon SLR forum, a fellow posted some white balance measurements for various devices.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=11648779

> There was too much variation in the earlier colorimeter readings,
> possibly because I was making them outdoors under cloudy
> conditions, and/or the battery was getting tired. For the
> following I changed instruments and instead used a Minolta color
> temperature meter and a new Sekonic 558. For a 3200K adjusted
> source I found the following (numbers in parens are relative f/#
> values):
>
> Source: 3200K [0]
> Expodisc: 3240K [-2.7]
> Styrofoam Dixie Cup (6oz) 3050K [-3.0]
> Coffee Filter (1): 3130K [-1.2]
> Coffee Filter (2): 3060K [-1.9]
> Coffee Filter (3): 3020K [-2.1]
> White Lid: 2730K [-3.1]
> Pringle Lid (translucent): 3150K [-0.3]
>
> It appears that in terms of a device for establishing exposure, the
> white-type soft lid or 3 coffee filters come within a half stop,
> although both appear to skew the WB, and the white lid would throw
> the WB off by a significant amount. Evidently many users find they
> can "live" with color balance off by 200 degrees or so, so hey, if
> it works...
> Actually, the styrofoam cup did relatively well for establishing
> exposure, but would probably result in slightly cool images if used
> to establish WB. OTOH both the Pringle lid and a single coffee
> filter seem to be reasonably good for white balance, but neither
> could be used to establish exposure if an 18% gray card is what you
> expect. Both would create a WB that would result in a slight
> cooling effect to the image.
> The calibrated white density of my Expodisc is 0.74, so the -2.7
> figure above is off a little, ideally it should be -2.45. There
> appears to be a slight proximity effect that occurs, possibly due
> to the prismatic light gathering front surface (the light source
> was directed, not integrated). Also the coffee filters seem to be
> nonlinear in their light attenuation as they're stacked up, and I'm
> not sure why--possibly fiber orientation or something.
> A similar study using a 6000K source might be worthwhile--stay tuned.
> -RogM

Dan Richards · January 4th, 2005, 07:06 PM

hello all

I have worrked in the cg buisness for a while now and i am starting to expand my artist pallete towards film and photography.
I have simulated it for years in the computer, now i wanna do it for real!

i am intrested in recreating the lighting schemes from such title sequences as se7en and mimc....

http://www.imaginaryforces.com/html/...ects&q=5&id=82
http://www.imaginaryforces.com/html/...cts&q=5&id=110

though i know pretty much nothing about ( set ) lighting ,and other than doing it in computer graphics, i would like to know what types of lights might be used to do this type of effects

perhaps what are some lights that i could purchase?, i dont believe that i need an entire light kit?

and yes i also know that the majority of sequences look is done in post , wich i have a lot of experience using ! , basicly i want to achieve the best footage before manipulating it in the computer

though at times it looka like a flash light shining down on the subject might pull it off!

Rob Lohman · January 5th, 2005, 03:04 AM

There is no easy answer for this. As you seemingly know a certain
look is created through many layers from the art department,
cinematography, film stock, film processing and in the case of
se7en extensive post work with color corrections and such.

You are perhaps asking the wrong question? I think this has
nothing to do with lighting for title sequences. This has everything
to do with getting good lighting in general (as you lateron in your
post acknowledge).

This is not an easy thing! Lighting is like any art form which takes
tools but much more important experience and a good eye for
how good something looks and how it may be improved.

You usually do need a light-kit with all sort of extra goodies to
shape the light (reflectors, bounce boards, hard en soft lights,
gels, flags, scrims etc. etc.) in the way you want. There isn't a
single type of light to create what you are looking for since it is
layer upon layer of carefully crafted looks. So yeah, sometimes
one flashlight might do the trick, other times it may take 10 or
more lights depending on the situation. There is a reason they
have a huge amount of grip and lighting gear on the big
productions.....

There are some books on the subject etc., but I'm not sure what
the best way would be to proceed on this. Anyone else have
some thoughts on this?

Jose di Cani · January 10th, 2005, 10:25 AM

I found this site which really helped me to understand everythihng.

http://smad.jmu.edu/dof/

Jose di Cani · January 10th, 2005, 02:59 PM

http://www.deviantart.com/view/4666522/

Just wanted to let you know about this excelent site about lighing when shooting photos.

Bill Ball · January 10th, 2005, 09:36 PM

I will be shooting an urban street scene which is supposed to take place late in the day. To reduce the outside distractions I am planning on shooting it just after dawn. I am just wondering if there are any "gotchas" I should be looking out for, or any tips. I don't need the golden hour glow--just a sense that its late in the day. The fact that the sun will be on the wrong side of the sky is not a problem.

October 15th, 2004, 10:53 PM	#181
Douglas Akers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Wyandotte MI Posts: 47	lighting feedback Hey all, this is my first post in the photon forum. I was just looking for some feedback about my recent horror movie shoot. We had a lot of outdoor night time shots and it was very challenging. Our no budget lighting rig consisted of a 1000w metal halide that we modified and a couple of cheapo 500w quartz smith victors. Camera was a xv2000 with anamorphic lens. The pics are screen grabs that have been resized and compressed. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...5/f6a0e8a1.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...1/f6a0e896.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...9/f6a0e898.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...6/f6a0e89d.jpg http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...d/f6a0e89a.jpg Here's a pic of the MH rig. http://www.imagestation.com/picture/...0/f6a0dcc2.jpg

November 3rd, 2004, 10:29 PM	#182
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Movietone vs. Kino Flo TrueMatch Hi, I'm comparing MovieTone fluorescent lights with Kino Flo. I have some cheapie Sylvania 3500K lamps (75 CRI) that are to be replaced with something better. MovieTone claims to be the same as Kino Flo : http://www.flo-co.com/flo-co.html "Movie Tone lamps are color correct and have no Green Spike. The High Output Lamps or H.O.'s are an excellent replacement lamps for your Kino Flo fixtures. They match the Kino Flo output in every way and include the Impact resistant safety shield. " However, a click on the spectral chart of the Kino Flo "True Match" lamps reveals, guess what, a big green spike : http://www.kinoflo.com/sales_catalog_2004/lamps/001_lmp/truematch.html and the spectral plot : http://www.kinoflo.com/sales_catalog_2004/lamps/001_lmp/kf3200.html So, what lamps are actually compared ? Do the MovieTone lamps have the big green spike ? Are MovieTone actually better than TrueMatch ? Thanks for any info, Gints

November 8th, 2004, 06:01 AM	#184
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Shooting spotlight subjects on stage Hello, I have little experience vtaping performers on a stage. I read a lot of good posts on this forum about influencing the stage lighting for video recording, but I didn't see many solutions from the camera side. This weekend, I attended a stage Chinese performance at San Francisco'sPalace of Fine arts. The front stage lights were nearly spotlights and created strong specular highlights on the bare-headed actors and their shiny silk garments, especially the white garment on the lead actress. On my digital camera histogram, the highlights were always pushing the right edge, leaving the midtone details on the actors largely in the shadows. The gap between the highlights and midtones was HUGE. What do you do for such lighting conditions ? Would a polarizing filter help ? That may help some of the glare from a perspiring bare scalp, but probably nothing for siky garments. On a still camera, I can rotate the filter around a bit, but since the actors duck in and out of the spotlights, it's a chore ! Are there any solutions from the camera/video side ?

November 27th, 2004, 03:11 PM	#186
James Emory Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 1,892	Color Temperature Info www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/support/h2/temp.shtml http://videoexpert.home.att.net/artic1/240ctemp.htm www.3drender.com/glossary/colortemp.htm www.cybercollege.com/tvp028.htm

December 3rd, 2004, 11:06 PM	#187
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,366 Images: 513	Excellent -- thanks James, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 4th, 2004, 02:57 PM	#183
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	Ok. Here's the reply from FloCo, the makers of the MovieTone bulbs : The H.O. 32K are very similar to Kino Flos KF32 lamp in both color temp and brightness. When we say there is no green spike it is meant in reference to motion picture film photography, which can be very sensitive to the green value in fluorescent lamps. We only put enough green in the lamp to make it color correct. But it is easy in a high output lamp to have excessive green that will result in a green hue on the negative. Hope this helps. Thank you Ferdinand Metz The Fluorescent Company Inc. Flo-Co Inc. 661 269 2065

November 8th, 2004, 07:15 AM	#185
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,787	This is the essence of the problem with filming many stage shows and I don't think there's much you can do. My approach is to shoot a lot of tight shots such that I can expose to keep things from blowing out a lot. You need to ride the iris control. Then you can edit in some brief wide shots where you allow the bright areas to blow out more. Do what you can in post to bring out some detail in the shadows. The trouble is that we theatrical lighting designers use the huge contrast range that you describe to create dramatic effects on the stage. There is just no way that DV can deal with that.

December 17th, 2004, 04:55 PM	#188
Carlos E. Martinez Trustee Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil Posts: 1,138	Used gear in NY? Are there any interesting places in NY where I can try findind some used light heads? Lowel or similar? Names please! Carlos

December 27th, 2004, 08:35 PM	#189
Benjamin Palmer New Boot Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7	you might want to try reading the classifieds (or posting) on craigslist.com http://newyork.craigslist.org/ you can post in the wanted section, or poke through the ads... good deals there and will be local to nyc. otherwise, check b&h photo they have quality used equipment sometimes __________________ ............................ benjamin palmer president the barbarian group 617.424.7666 332 Newbury St. Boston, MA 02115 www.barbariangroup.com

December 31st, 2004, 04:36 PM	#190
Gints Klimanis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,222	White Balance - various (Expodisc, coffee filters, Pringle's lid, etc.) Hi, On the Nikon SLR forum, a fellow posted some white balance measurements for various devices. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1025&message=11648779 > There was too much variation in the earlier colorimeter readings, > possibly because I was making them outdoors under cloudy > conditions, and/or the battery was getting tired. For the > following I changed instruments and instead used a Minolta color > temperature meter and a new Sekonic 558. For a 3200K adjusted > source I found the following (numbers in parens are relative f/# > values): > > Source: 3200K [0] > Expodisc: 3240K [-2.7] > Styrofoam Dixie Cup (6oz) 3050K [-3.0] > Coffee Filter (1): 3130K [-1.2] > Coffee Filter (2): 3060K [-1.9] > Coffee Filter (3): 3020K [-2.1] > White Lid: 2730K [-3.1] > Pringle Lid (translucent): 3150K [-0.3] > > It appears that in terms of a device for establishing exposure, the > white-type soft lid or 3 coffee filters come within a half stop, > although both appear to skew the WB, and the white lid would throw > the WB off by a significant amount. Evidently many users find they > can "live" with color balance off by 200 degrees or so, so hey, if > it works... > Actually, the styrofoam cup did relatively well for establishing > exposure, but would probably result in slightly cool images if used > to establish WB. OTOH both the Pringle lid and a single coffee > filter seem to be reasonably good for white balance, but neither > could be used to establish exposure if an 18% gray card is what you > expect. Both would create a WB that would result in a slight > cooling effect to the image. > The calibrated white density of my Expodisc is 0.74, so the -2.7 > figure above is off a little, ideally it should be -2.45. There > appears to be a slight proximity effect that occurs, possibly due > to the prismatic light gathering front surface (the light source > was directed, not integrated). Also the coffee filters seem to be > nonlinear in their light attenuation as they're stacked up, and I'm > not sure why--possibly fiber orientation or something. > A similar study using a 6000K source might be worthwhile--stay tuned. > -RogM

January 4th, 2005, 07:06 PM	#191
Dan Richards New Boot Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: dallas texas Posts: 10	lighting for title sequence hello all I have worrked in the cg buisness for a while now and i am starting to expand my artist pallete towards film and photography. I have simulated it for years in the computer, now i wanna do it for real! i am intrested in recreating the lighting schemes from such title sequences as se7en and mimc.... http://www.imaginaryforces.com/html/...ects&q=5&id=82 http://www.imaginaryforces.com/html/...cts&q=5&id=110 though i know pretty much nothing about ( set ) lighting ,and other than doing it in computer graphics, i would like to know what types of lights might be used to do this type of effects perhaps what are some lights that i could purchase?, i dont believe that i need an entire light kit? and yes i also know that the majority of sequences look is done in post , wich i have a lot of experience using ! , basicly i want to achieve the best footage before manipulating it in the computer though at times it looka like a flash light shining down on the subject might pull it off!

January 5th, 2005, 03:04 AM	#192
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	There is no easy answer for this. As you seemingly know a certain look is created through many layers from the art department, cinematography, film stock, film processing and in the case of se7en extensive post work with color corrections and such. You are perhaps asking the wrong question? I think this has nothing to do with lighting for title sequences. This has everything to do with getting good lighting in general (as you lateron in your post acknowledge). This is not an easy thing! Lighting is like any art form which takes tools but much more important experience and a good eye for how good something looks and how it may be improved. You usually do need a light-kit with all sort of extra goodies to shape the light (reflectors, bounce boards, hard en soft lights, gels, flags, scrims etc. etc.) in the way you want. There isn't a single type of light to create what you are looking for since it is layer upon layer of carefully crafted looks. So yeah, sometimes one flashlight might do the trick, other times it may take 10 or more lights depending on the situation. There is a reason they have a huge amount of grip and lighting gear on the big productions..... There are some books on the subject etc., but I'm not sure what the best way would be to proceed on this. Anyone else have some thoughts on this? __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

January 10th, 2005, 10:25 AM	#193
Jose di Cani Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Holland, Europe Posts: 214	using shallow DOF to get that nice look>> for starters I found this site which really helped me to understand everythihng. http://smad.jmu.edu/dof/

January 10th, 2005, 02:59 PM	#194
Jose di Cani Major Player Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Holland, Europe Posts: 214	excellent site about lighting, DOF and other interesting stuff http://www.deviantart.com/view/4666522/ Just wanted to let you know about this excelent site about lighing when shooting photos.

January 10th, 2005, 09:36 PM	#195
Bill Ball Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: NEW JERSEY Posts: 216	dawn for sunset I will be shooting an urban street scene which is supposed to take place late in the day. To reduce the outside distractions I am planning on shooting it just after dawn. I am just wondering if there are any "gotchas" I should be looking out for, or any tips. I don't need the golden hour glow--just a sense that its late in the day. The fact that the sun will be on the wrong side of the sky is not a problem.