big white balance calibration target - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Photon Management

Photon Management
Shine an ever-loving light on you.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 17th, 2013, 10:16 AM   #16
Major Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 469
Re: big white balance calibration target

To be honest, I think I've always had better luck (and more consistent results) by simply using WB presets for 3200k, 5600k and 4500k for times when I need to split the difference.
Mark Kenfield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2013, 07:12 PM   #17
Trustee
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 1,430
Re: big white balance calibration target

Does anyone use the good old fashioned chip chart?
http://www.kozco.com/calibrat/gray3.html

For multiple tv cameras, we always used to use these for white balance, and also to set proper exposure by watching the vectorscope and waveform monitor. As Steven said, adjust color until pinpoint on vectorscope is in middle. Waveform stairs would read black to 100% white. With this chart, you get both white balance and exposure set.
Warren
Warren Kawamoto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 22nd, 2013, 07:36 PM   #18
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,676
Re: big white balance calibration target

Yes. I love them. But my old set I carried for years got wet on a shoot and ruined (old cardboard). The only one that survived was the grey scale card. Between that one and white cards I am OK but I would still like the whole set again.

By the way, I tried printing new ones from the internet and using pan-tone colors to print warm cards. It was not the same. The scope never lies, they were close but no cigar. I want a new set. You can't paint well with a cheap bush ;)

Steve
__________________
www.CorporateShow.com
Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!
Steven Digges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:32 AM   #19
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

Vortex Media has activated a special promo code on their website for DVInfo members that will allow you to save 25% off the price of WarmCards 3.0 or WarmCards Jr. 3.0.

http://www.WarmCards.com/WC1.html
Promo code: DVINF0

Please take advantage of this offer soon, because it expires on November 1, 2013
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 11:25 AM   #20
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,676
Re: big white balance calibration target

Hey Doug,

I checked out your site. Looks good. And a great offer for DVINFO members. Since your are making cards, I am curious why you do not offer a traditional "chip set" to paint with? Wouldn't that be an easy addition to your product line?

Steve
__________________
www.CorporateShow.com
Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!
Steven Digges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 01:17 PM   #21
Inner Circle
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: LOWESTOFT - UK
Posts: 2,120
Re: big white balance calibration target

The point of the white balance is to make sure anything on set, that the camera can see that is white - looks white. So if perhaps you have somebody wearing white trousers, or a lab coat, then this is what the WB sorts out - so whatever you use should be where this white object will be. If you have coloured light sources and they are designed to land on the white coat, then you don't correct this - you WB for white light, and when you add the colour, you see it. If a stab of blue moonlight comes in through a window - you don't let this impact the adjustment of whites, by killing it if necessary. White just needs to be white - we're making this far too complicated - it's basic stuff, not rocket science!
Paul R Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 02:30 PM   #22
Trustee
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,676
Re: big white balance calibration target

Hey Paul,

I donít see anyone complicating things here. This thread and another one just like it that was started at the same time are doing what this forum does best. Guys of different levels of experience are sharing knowledge and techniques.

White balance is a basic function, and a very important one. As mentioned in this thread, it can go far beyond setting a white level once and firing away. And, once you tell the camera what white IS, it sets many other parameters off of that baseline, not just white.

For me, I despise unnecessary work in post production. I believe putting a little extra time into the set up to get BASIC functions like white balance and exposure correct is always the right thing to do. :)

Steve
__________________
www.CorporateShow.com
Been at this so long I'm rounding my years of experience down...not up!
Steven Digges is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 02:34 PM   #23
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

White balance may not be rocket science, but it's not as simple as some people would like it to be. Yes, there are times when white needs to be white -- but that won't result in pleasing skin tones. The primary purpose of WarmCards is to create warmer, nicer, healthier skin tones for interviews and other types of head shots. If you compare a white balance done with a white card vs. one done with a WarmCard I guarantee you that 99 people out of 100 will say the warmer white balance simply looks better.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 02:36 PM   #24
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Digges View Post
Hey Doug,

I checked out your site. Looks good. And a great offer for DVINFO members. Since your are making cards, I am curious why you do not offer a traditional "chip set" to paint with? Wouldn't that be an easy addition to your product line?
Steve
No, not easy at all to produce and then quite a bit more complicated to use. But thanks for the suggestion.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 09:53 PM   #25
Trustee
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ 85260
Posts: 1,538
Re: big white balance calibration target

Now just to totally blow everyones collective minds, I did a training shoot recently with a guy who spent decades as a colorist/technician with Technicolor in LA.

According to him, adjusting for skin tones is NOTHING like I ever thought it was.

You see, skintone balance isn't actually done via the tones of the "skin." You're balancing for the color of the BLOOD in the subcutaneous layers under the surface. This is why a white balance correction for the lightest skinned Caucasian and the deepest tones of African skin turn out to be PRECISELY the same.

Just to prove the point, he did a white balance using the skintone line on a vectorscope on a photo of a SEAL on a rock. Since it was a mammal, it instantly corrected the skin tones for the people in the scene just the same.

All these years I *thought* I understood white balance for proper skin tones. Silly me.

(And kind of puts skin color intolerance in a whole new light understanding that a tiny fraction of an inch below that exterior surface, every single human on the whole planet it precisely the same fundamental hue, RED!)
__________________
Classroom editing instructor? Check out www.starteditingnow.com
Turnkey editor training content including licensed training footage for classroom use.
Bill Davis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23rd, 2013, 10:34 PM   #26
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

Bill, and that's why WarmCards have been so successful for the last 13 years and are used by cameramen all over the world -- they work great for all skin tones and races.

Now, if you really want to blow your mind, EXPOSURE is also the same for all skin tones. This is why an exposure for the lightest skinned Caucasian and the deepest shades of African skin turn out to be PRECISELY the same. When I'm teaching workshops this is a hard thing for some people to wrap their head around until I demonstrate it a few different ways. Then it all makes sense.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 05:33 AM   #27
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 946
Re: big white balance calibration target

Bill - your post did blow my mind! So, .... its not the skin color but the layer just underneath? Wow! This comes under the heading of "Learn something new every day." That was a very interesting and valuable post. Thanks a bunch for taking the time to write it.

Doug - LED and warm cards .... Just visited your link above again and did some looking around. I got to the yellow page "How to Set up and Shoot Awsome Interviews with LED Lights:" so you know which one I'm talking about.

I've got two "types" of LED lights: the CoolLight CL-LED600 light panels ( CL-LED600 600 LED Panel Dimmable - Cool Lights USA) and one Comer CM-LBPS1800 (Comer CM-LBPS1800 On-Camera LED Light (Sony Battery) | L.A. Color Pros) ). The CoolLight panels have one type of bulb while the Comer has two color temperature type of bulbs (6 cool and 4 warm).

The Comer light while not perfect, has a pleasing color to it and I'd put it under the heading of 'close enough for Government work' for general lighting. What they did was to have a mix of cool and warm LEDs so they complement eachother. For a portable light that one can stick on the camera and use for fill, bang-for-the-buck, it works pretty good, especially when trying to add light to an existing poor-light condition.

The CoolLight panels are a different situation. The light panels are the "flood" type and put out a light that I've tried to correct with gels but there is still see a bit of green from a spike. Offhand I don't recall which gels I used but I think they were a 1/4 + 1/8. I can't totally correct the spike out via gels and messing around with trying to get it out in post is a lot of work and I'm not good at adjusting color in post. Learning how to do color correction in post is on my to-do list.

Question #1: Are the warm cards something that will help correct the color from either or both of these two light sources?

Question #2: In the case of the CoolLight panel, assuming a WarmCard would work, would a gelled panel be better to correct to than an un-gelled one? And any comment about the green spike???
John Nantz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 06:52 AM   #28
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

Hi John,

I've never used either of the two lights you're speaking about, so I can't address them directly. And I generally try to avoid mixing different type of lights (for example, tungsten with LED) or mixing different brands of LED on the same shot because the colors vary so greatly. However, with that said, I've never come across any lighting instrument or professional camera that WarmCards didn't help with getting a better white balance on faces.

If you have lights that are known to have green spikes you could try adding magenta gels to the face of them if that is convenient. But every set of WarmCards also includes a "minus green" card that is specifically designed to force the camera to compensate for lights with a green spike. Originally they were created for use in locations that have a lot of uncontrollable ambient light from cheap overhead fluorescent tubes, but I've seen them work great on problematic LED lights, too.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 10:24 AM   #29
Major Player
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 946
Re: big white balance calibration target

Doug - Yes, I agree with the "avoid mixing types of lights" comment and in today's world there is one constant and that is change. Tungsten lasted for a century, halogen came along, then LED, and now even the LEDs and fluorescents are changing as manufacturers try and perfect their color for consumers. In the news recently there was an announcement about a German company that has come up with another high-efficiency light source. Oh boy! What's next?

With regard to gelling the CoolLights the 1/4 + 1/8 gels are magenta. What I found was the 1/2 was too much and the 1/4 not enough but 3/8 is close, best compromise, but definitely not spot on. Not only that but the gels seem to suck up a lot of light which is a bummer.

This brings up a question: do you think by doing a camera color light balance there would be "less loss" of light when using a Warm Cards?
John Nantz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 24th, 2013, 05:47 PM   #30
Vortex Media
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New England, USA
Posts: 2,480
Re: big white balance calibration target

John, I'm not sure I understand the question you are asking. But if you are asking if you'd lose less light by white balancing on WarmCards vs. adding gels to your lights, the answer is yes. There is never any loss of light when white balancing with WarmCards or any other calibration target. But adding gels to your lights always dims them at least a little bit, and sometimes a lot.

If the Cool Lights are as bad as you say, I'd probably add a 1/4 or 3/8 magenta gel to get them closer to normal, and then use the Minus Green card that comes with the set of WarmCards to clean up the color balance.
__________________
Vortex Media http://www.vortexmedia.com/
Sony FS7, F55, and XDCAM training videos, field guides, and other production tools
Doug Jensen is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > The Tools of DV and HD Production > Photon Management

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:51 PM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network