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Old October 12th, 2006, 04:10 PM   #16
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I didn't realize broad, sweeping comments about the culture in general were taboo, nor did I expect that they would be seen as personal attacks when there was nothing in the statements in question that pointed to particular individuals here or elsewhere. If I say there's something in our culture that I feel a certain way about and you take that to mean that I'm attacking you or anyone else personally, that's your problem.

I resolve to refrain from expressing anything close to an opinion in the future, and will stick completely to technical discussions about cameras and microphones.
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Old October 13th, 2006, 02:27 AM   #17
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Ditto to CAL. Whether intended or not, the remarks about short attention span and ADD appeared to be referring to me and Cal, but I'm not that upset about it. Just thought we were offering constructive commentary respecting the short TIm did.
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Old October 21st, 2006, 10:52 PM   #18
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Tim, great work.

Audiences are different everywhere. This board is mostly professional videographers working weddings, paid shoots, commercials, etc. etc. Many filmmakers as well, but it's not a place for studio artists or experimental filmmakers to hang around. A video like this would play very well in a more 'conceptual' crowd, rather than the technical, commercial or narrative-based folks. Kinda the difference between film school and art school (thank GOD I choose art school :P).

I've seen many projects like yours in the classes I teach and in my grad studies. We're in an interesting time, artistically. Somewhere between the empty metaphor-based post-modernists and the tech-obssesed h.d. generation that's all about resolution and spinning ground glasses. Maybe somewhere in between is a comfortable place to lie, I don't know. I chose my place already. Anyways, keep up the good work, your audience is out there, just keep looking!
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Old October 23rd, 2006, 08:48 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Winchester
Kinda the difference between film school and art school (thank GOD I choose art school :P).
Why oh why did I choose science grad school???

Thanks for the feedback. Glad you liked it!
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Old October 29th, 2006, 11:40 PM   #20
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Spoon Test Factory

First of all, I viewed the film, and it made me want more.. I wanted to understand the motivations and dreams of people that work in something as mentally dulling as a Spoon Test factory. Marie seemed to hate her job, while Geoff loved it.. Its hard to undertand their reasons in 6 minutes..

Another thing is that I noticed a subtext of love betwen Geoff and Marie. Even though she can't stand him, Geoff is an eternal optimist, and I think his playfulness is meant to get her to open up to him and have a little fun.. Unfortunately, Marie couldn't be any less receptive to his charms...

Furthermore, there are little tidbits of sinster rumblings in this film.. Notice that the tables are not a standard size, the tests are not equally easy or hard for everyone, and the food offerings are meant to destroy the will of the common man (or woman). Also, notice that neither worker was allowed to show the other worker what their tasks were. What IS the puzzle that all these pieces allude to?

On the bright side, I heard there was a Super Extended Unrated Director's Cut. Featuring:

1. A documentary about the making of this video...
2. A documentary about the rich artistic history of Studio 5 South..
3. Deleted Scenes (Some of which included a hot love scene between Marie and Geoff that was part of his daydream...)
4. An alternate ending
5. A brief history on Napoleon's battles against the English.
6. Extra songs in the end credits where Geoff serenades Marie and sings some other spoon related songs..

I also hear they are planning on including a spoon with a sail, and a foil Napolean hat for collectors.

And that Brian guy is up for an Oscar for Best Supporting Comedian in a Short.. Can't wait to see if he wins!
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Old October 30th, 2006, 01:50 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal Johnson
You know, you guys really need to do a reality check and take a look at the "student" film "Junipero" that is also posted on this section. I think its hilarious to read Jim's "tech-obssesed h.d." comment, when "Spoon Factory" was posted with a production notation that it was shot in HDV. "Junipero" was shot in SD. Take a look at what "students" are doing with an SD format, the effort, skill and production level they brought to their project. If that doesn't instill some humility, and shed light as to why not everyone went ga ga over "Spoon Factory", then there's really no reaching you guys.
I happen to agree Cal. Although I told Marcus that his film was lengthy and lacked good performances, it was, however, an amazing achievement for DV. And I couldn't agree more that even though it [Junipero] was probably way too long, it felt like a high-end production with the effects, credits and editing. The only reason it set me apart and viewed it, as student was again the length and the acting, which some may argue is major. If it was cut 3/4 and perhaps some tightened edits to improve the overall performances it would have been extremely good.

This [Spoon Factory] is far from being a Junipero, but again, its a matter of opinion to some extend. Filmmaking is difficult, so a continued effort will pay off at the end, hopefully.

Cal, we all suffer from some tunnel-vision of our own work and itís hard to be subjective. I know that from my own work, but I am getting better and more open to seeing things pointed out by others, especially adverse comments, because I realize they are meant to help. However, having said that, there is a fine line between accommodating others opinion and standing ground on your own vision. I try to find a balance.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 08:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Duke
This [Spoon Factory] is far from being a Junipero, but again, its a matter of opinion to some extend. Filmmaking is difficult, so a continued effort will pay off at the end, hopefully.

Cal, we all suffer from some tunnel-vision of our own work and itís hard to be subjective.
I think it's interesting that you and Cal are comparing this to this other work. I kind of take offense at Cal's remark "You know, you guys really need to do a reality check...". As far as I know, I don't think I ever said this was the be all and end all of films. Spoon Test was a little short we shot in 2.5 hours one lazy sunday, not a a project that was work on for 7 months. I would hope Junipero comes off better with that kind of investment.

I appreciated all the criticism, no matter how inappropriate the delivery sometimes was. But comparisons to other members' works and ranking them and pissing contests about the differences in tastes really aren't called for and I don't see how that can be considered "constructive criticism."

I think this thread would have been a lot friendlier and more productive had it been limited to comments about the short - if you didn't like it, fine.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 02:27 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Gray
I think it's interesting that you and Cal are comparing this to this other work. I kind of take offense at Cal's remark "You know, you guys really need to do a reality check...". As far as I know, I don't think I ever said this was the be all and end all of films. Spoon Test was a little short we shot in 2.5 hours one lazy sunday, not a a project that was work on for 7 months. I would hope Junipero comes off better with that kind of investment.
Tim,

The comments, at least mine, weren't meant to put you down. I know that it sometimes can feel like a personal attack, but you really shouldn't accept criticism on one piece of your work as a general description of your character. If you read what I wrote, I said it is a matter of opinion and sometimes critics will blast work for being bad. I don't think I did that at all. Comparisons will ALWAYS happen with people critiquing a movie, however I don't think the comparison to Junipero was meant as a competition, but rather as another short on this board that could be viewed as a way to improve the overall quality and to learn from. Trust me, a lot of the issues I had with Junipero were the same as with yours. The length and the performances of the film.

At the end of the day what you show people is what they will judge, not how long it took, not that you had a hard time on the set, not that you couldn't get better actors or write a better script etc. You don't screen a movie with a disclaimer so ultimately it will be compared to other films. When people point (or compare) my work to other shorts I look at them and use them as inspiration as to what I can do and get better at.

I think the last few comments arose from some of the posts that criticized others for criticizing the work and I think Cal to somewhat offense to that. I.e. the fact that it was criticized meant that we suffered from ADD or that we didn't know what art was etc; if we didn't like it, we didn't know what we were talking about. I think that hit a nerve. In other words, we were dismissed for not liking the film.
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Old October 30th, 2006, 08:09 PM   #24
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In some cases you have to keep comparisons within the same ballpark. Comparing something that was made in a day to something that took over half a year to make is hardly a fair comparison.

IMHO
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Old October 30th, 2006, 09:02 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Horrigan
But in some cases you have to keep comparisons within the same ballpark. Comparing something that was made in a day to something that took over half a year to make is hardly a fair comparison.

IMHO
I have to say but people will eventually measure the work against big time Hollywood or the Indie industry because at the end of the day if you have a choice of buying and/or watching Spoon Factory versus Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind/Adaptation (just examples), which one do you pick? Do you really think people will say, gee I really rather watch this low budget film because it was shot in one day and made for very little money?

Isn't the point of all of us making films to one day archive distribution deals and studio contracts to release our work? And if so, shouldnít we compare our work to those films we so admire? No audience member cares about what happened before the final cut. They care and judge the finished project without disclaimers.

Again, I have stated over and over again that film making is extremely difficult, and that harsh criticism should never stop us from continuing our dream, but I agree with Cal, "Bravo Bravo" doesn't really help me better my film. Its very nice to hear that people enjoy your work, but what does all that matters if you can't sell it or get more work out of it? None comes to mind.

I don't like hearing people criticize my work, but its necessary, at least if it is constructive accompanied with suggestions of how to make it better. Otherwise itís pointless if it is just a barrage of negative comments. However, I donít think that is the case here at all.
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Old November 6th, 2006, 11:58 AM   #26
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Sorry for the late reply, but I was away last week for my day job. I should probably let this die.

I don't think I ever said that it was a great work or that I didn't appreciate the criticism. Frankly, I'm sick of hearing sh*t that "I think the film is God's gift to man" or that I want "Bravo Bravo". Rip it apart - that's what I kind of want to hear.

I know works don't exist in a vacuum. Compare if you want. The limits on what is a proper target for comparison are very subjective. Depending on the point you are comparing, those limits are variable.

Here's my take on "Spoon Factory". Some of this was pointed out by you guys and some wasn't. These are not excuses. It is what it is.

---

The lighting sucked in my opinion - I was in charge of it and made the poor choice of going with natural light. It changed during the afternoon (it always does, doesn't it?). I should know better.

Same goes for the set - we should have tried a bit harder.

Sound was mediocre. Again, I was in charge of it. The noise floor was way to high. I wish I knew a better way to deal with it.

I thought the editing was good, but as people have pointed out, it was too long. Is that a writing problem, an editing problem, both? We should have cut out the middle of the script and trimmed any excess fat in the editing stage.

The story - so so - it was a simple set up and a gag. Probably could have come up with something better/different. We wanted the gag at the end.

I won't comment on the quality of acting (in either direction) since I think it is inappropriate for me to do so. They were great to work with.

I won't comment on the framing/shots either. Out of my league, and none of you guys seem to mention anything anyway.

---

Again, thanks for the comments which were constructive. Hope I can return the favor some day.

EDIT - I made some other comments that probably don't need to be made.
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