Cineform Encoding Quality diferences? - Page 2 at DVinfo.net

Go Back   DV Info Net > High Definition Video Acquisition > HD and UHD ( 2K+ ) Digital Cinema > Silicon Imaging SI-2K

Silicon Imaging SI-2K
2/3" 1080p IT-integrated 10-bit digital cinema w/direct-to-disk recording.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 3rd, 2007, 02:22 PM   #16
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
The problem is that those artifacts, was not appearing on the preview display, when recording. But I finally discovered them in post produccion, when scaled the frame to fit the workspace.

I had those problems when shooting 2k and previewing with 1920x1200 display resolution. Now that I have to go below that resolution the problem is getting worse.

That mean that the Silicon DVR is not scaling the frame properly. Of course I can always zoom on the image in post to fix it but you have to mess up the framing of the camera, and if you are using very elaborate composition schemes as we were doing you have to compromize your shot. Or loose some extra detail.

I was using zeiss primes as well, and is getting worse with the resolution of the preview going down.

The aspect ratio is not corrected either in the second display so if you`re using widescreen displays you see the frame streched out when usign 1280x720.

The idea of previewing a shot is to be able to feel the atmosphere of a shot right on camera when shooting. Of course you can go back and Shoot like, Hitchcock just looking at your actors in a point view close to the camera, but i feel is a step back, given all the advances in technology. I feel that this problem, is like loosing one eye in your shooting.
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2007, 02:59 PM   #17
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Quote:
The problem is that those artifacts, was not appearing on the preview display, when recording.. . . That mean that the SiliconDVR is not scaling the frame properly.
I hate to say this, but that's not really possible . . . the display is one-for-one with the recorded file. We're uploading the same exact same bit-map to the screen as what's going to the disk. WYSIWYG.

In fact, I'm attaching an example. What has been done in this image, is I've taken a scree-grab of the interface, and I've then taken a frame from the recording of this scene, and I've done a 50/50 overlay of the recorded image with the display image. You will notice that it looks like one image . . . that's because it *is* one image, meaning the display preview and the recorded file are the same.

One thing I have seen in the past is where someone was accidentally zoomed in 2x and didn't realize it. Of course now we have widgets on the screen and an indicator at the top that tells you if you're zoomed in great than 1:1.

Quote:
The aspect ratio is not corrected either in the second display so if you`re using widescreen displays you see the frame streched out when usign 1280x720.
Just curious, what are your settings, as we can't reproduce this issue, and we're trying. Are you sure you've setup the video card correctly? Which way are you seeing the stretching, horizontally or vertically? What is the mode you're running the first-monitor GUI at? 800x600 or 1280x720? What monitor are you using?

Now I have seen where certain digital input displays, like computer monitors, won't themselves scale an image properly unless you input the native resolution of the monitor, i.e., some 24" LCD's won't scale a 1280x720 input signal correctly because the screen is natively 1920x1200, and it requires that same aspect ratio input which is 16:10, so it will stretch a 16:9 signal incorrectly. But that's not the fault of SiliconDVR.

Quote:
The idea of previewing a shot is to be able to feel the atmosphere of a shot right on camera when shooting. Of course you can go back and Shoot like, Hitchcock just looking at your actors in a point view close to the camera, but i feel is a step back, given all the advances in technology. I feel that this problem, is like loosing one eye in your shooting.
I completely agree . . . that's why the preview that you see on the screen is 1:1 with the recorded file. If you're experiencing some problems, please let us know, and we'll try to fix the situation. Since I can't reproduce any of the issues you just described with a correctly setup system, I need some more information on your setup to diagnose the issues.
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-overlay.jpg  
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2007, 06:54 PM   #18
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
In that shot at the right you can see the matte box showing, that was not in the display, I can say it because I was the one in front of the large display and It is not the first time that happens. A 2x zoom would be a C.U of the horse, and the composition in this shot was a little closer than this so there is no way the DP accidentally press the zoom since I asked a Over Shoulder not a Close Shot, as you say it is a 24" display and it is stretching horizontaly so i guess the answer will be to use a Mini instead to have the display correctly since, I cant change the displays now for a "native 1024x720" so I can monitor on set what i get from the camera.

The strangest of all is that If connect another 720p device to the display, even when its native resolutions is 1920x1200, the aspect ratio is ok, but when I connect the SI2K it isnt.

The configuration is exactly the same you left when the camera was delivered, I just reinstalled the Silicon DVR because the IRIDAS app wasnt working. (After reinstalled it worked)
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-mattebox.jpg  
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 3rd, 2007, 09:20 PM   #19
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Thanks for the image Sergio.

From my measurements in Photoshop, and if I'm interpreting correctly what was the matte-box in this image, it seems that somehow 6% of the entire recorded image was cropped from the display so that you could not see what was in the left 6% of the frame. Is this correct? I'm uploading an image here to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

If that is the case, and you say this happens on multiple events, where the left 6% of the screen is cropped from the display, can you give use the settings you're using so that we can diagnose this issue properly? I'm endevouring to reproduce this issue, and I simply can't. I keep getting a 1:1 image on my screen . . . 6% is quite a bit if you think about it. That's over 120 pixels that the image would be cropped on the left in a 2K image.

Quote:
The strangest of all is that If connect another 720p device to the display, even when its native resolutions is 1920x1200, the aspect ratio is ok, but when I connect the SI2K it isnt.
Then the settings you're using on the video card are somehow incorrect. Can you please send us the settings you're using so we can diagnose this issue? Again, I'm trying to reproduce your issue and I'm simply not able to.

Quote:
The configuration is exactly the same you left when the camera was delivered, I just reinstalled the Silicon DVR because the IRIDAS app wasnt working. (After reinstalled it worked)
SiliconDVR doesn't control the monitor, the video card does. I would need to know the settings of the video card. Also can you tell us what external monitor model number you're using?

Quote:
so i guess the answer will be to use a Mini instead to have the display correctly since, I cant change the displays now for a "native 1024x720" so I can monitor on set what i get from the camera.
This is not the answer you are limited to, and if you would work with me and let me know what exactly you are trying to-do, I'm sure we can work through this issue and solve your problems since we have set the camera up here, and have gotten successful results that don't crop the display or stretch oddly, and give 1:1 results on-screen. Alternatively you can call Steve and let him walk you through the monitor setup over the phone.

Thanks,

Jason
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-mattebox.jpg  
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 08:58 AM   #20
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Kathmandu, Nepal
Posts: 32
The incorrect ratio of the display has happened to me too. I have tried all the settings that there is but never managed to get both the displays to show the correct ratio.
Bhaskar Dhungana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 12:45 PM   #21
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Can you let us know what monitors you are using? We've been testing with Samsung monitors, and haven't had ratio problem issues. So this might depend on the monitor you are using.

Secondly, an aspect ratio issue is not the same as the severe cropping issue that Sergio seems to be suggesting is occurring and we can't reproduce here with our equipment.
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 01:31 PM   #22
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
Im using 800x600 in the Xenarc using the VGA, and 1280x720 on the HP LP2465 connected trough the HDMI output, In fact in both monitors the image is streched. The GUI on the Xenarc is not using the entire screen as it does when working on 1280x768 (some how is the only mode in wich it fits the entire screen).

The resolution is set to 32bits, DualMonitor is in Extended Mode. The aspect ratio option on the xenarc is set to fullscreen (no borders). Im using Silicon DVR 423.



The driver Im missing is F14BC device in smb-slot2, i couldnt find a driver for that device.
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-xenarcsm.jpg  
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 03:41 PM   #23
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
In the image attached you can see what Im saying about the SiliconDVR not sacaling properly. The two upper images are at the same resolution, the desktop is using the entire screen, but when I run the Silicon DVR the image is streched horizontally.

The Image below shows how the monitor is framing the shot at 1920x1200, the aspect is right at that resolution.

The same happens with the Xenarc display, at 800x600 the aspect is not right and I cant use the entire screen.
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 03:44 PM   #24
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
I forgot the attatchment, sorry.
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-displays.jpg  
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 04:08 PM   #25
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Okay, the fix for the Xenarc is simple . . . in 800x600 mode hit the "M" button on the from of the Xenarc twice. The first time it should bring up one on-screen-display, the second time you press the "M" button you will get a second screen. At the bottom of the screen is an Aspect Ratio correction setting. It is normally set to 16:9, but you need to set it to 4:3 when working with 800x600 material. To-do so simply hit the "s" button to move down to the Aspect Ratio correction setting, and then press one of the arrow keys to select the 4:3 setting. That should fix the aspect ratio issues with the Xenarc.

For the HP monitor, you have to set the monitor at 1280x1024 (4:3 aspect ratio) in order to get the correct aspect ratio for a 1280x720 image unless you run at the native resolution of the monitor (i.e., 1680x1050 in the case of a 20" and 1920x1200 in the case of a 23-24"). Because you will again be setting a 4:3 resolution in a 16:10 monitor, you will have a black boarder around the picture, but at least the aspect ratio will be correct. This seems to be an odd issue with the HP's, or whatever electronic chipset they are using for the digital input. They don't necessarily like the 1280x720 input from the camera for whatever reason, and prefer a common 4:3 input like 1280x1024, or the native input of the display which would be 1680x1050 for a 20" and 1920x1200 for a 24". Other wide-screen resolutions don't seem to work right and do cause stretching. At least that's what I've experienced when setting up the camera with HP monitors (which we have tested and successfully gotten to work with the correct aspect ratio).

BTW, Sergio, please do not confuse SiliconDVR with the display card. You keep repeating that "SiliconDVR is not scaling properly" . . . SiliconDVR simply is drawing whatever goes to the screen. It has no control over screen aspect ratios or resolutions. The issue is not with how SiliconDVR draws to the screen. The monitor and video card combination are not being interpreted correctly, and that is creating an aspect ratio issue as the monitor is trying to interpret a signal and then display that signal from the video card, and in this case it's doing it wrong. That has nothing to-do with SiliconDVR.

Thanks,

Jason
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 07:16 PM   #26
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
Jason:

The reason I`m saying that the SiliconDVR software is not working correctly is because, In the build 422 of the software, in the build fixes posted on the SI2K website, you said that the you fixed working in 800x600 resolution, well, working with the image streched down or not being able to use the entire touchscreen is not a correction for me. Scaling to 4:3 makes the working area even smaller, im loosing almost half of the working area of the touchscreen. Maybe if you have a small kid, with very small fingers as camera operator, you will not have trouble with the interface, but my problem is that I use adult crew, It will be very uncomfortable to work that way.

I`ve tried all the above methods you mentioned before telling you I was facing issues with the display, but none of the configurations I used worked for me. Only working 1240x720 on the Xenarc fixed the thing, but the cost is performance, so thats not an option.

There must be a work arround for the problem.

"The issue is not with how SiliconDVR draws to the screen. The monitor and video card combination are not being interpreted correctly, and that is creating an aspect ratio issue as the monitor is trying to interpret a signal and then display that signal from the video card, and in this case it's doing it wrong. That has nothing to-do with SiliconDVR"

Yes It does... Since is preciselly the video card-display config that comes bundled with the camera, and the issue happens even with just the Xenarc attached to the DVR. This is not a custom rig I build to work with the camera, the issues would be understandable in that case.

I believe most of the people will need to have the ability to use at least the entire screen of the touchscreen display, to properly operate the camera.
Attached Thumbnails
Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?-xenarc-011.jpg  
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 08:13 PM   #27
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
I guess that then the optimum configuration is not running the SiliconDVR GUI at 800x600, and the second monitor at 1280x720. But both displays at 1280x720. Since the GUI looks right in the Xenarc at that resolution.

And the other is using 17" monitors to have the right aspect ratio and resolution, since I find a real waste of space and money carrying arround 24" and above monitors if you will only see a small box inside. A vga splitter doesnt looks as a great idea for me, since you`ll only be able to output at 1280x720 in clone mode, so you will loose even more area in you video village display, unless operator feels confortable to work without the GUI tools on the primary display.

Did you find the missing driver? Maybe it doesnt affect performance, at all...But I dont think that installing it will harm it either.
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 4th, 2007, 11:20 PM   #28
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Quote:
The reason I`m saying that the SiliconDVR software is not working correctly is because, In the build 422 of the software, in the build fixes posted on the SI2K website, you said that the you fixed working in 800x600 resolution, well, working with the image streched down or not being able to use the entire touchscreen is not a correction for me. Scaling to 4:3 makes the working area even smaller, im loosing almost half of the working area of the touchscreen.
Sergio,

I feel we are talking past each other here . . . The Xenarc, because it is a 16:9 monitor, when it shows a 4:3 image, must show the image in a "pillar-box", that is the 4:3 image will sit in the middle of the screen, and there will be black on the edges. Please remember that the GUI is 16:9, but there is also a full-screen mode that will blow the image up into the 4:3 area (that would be pillar-box squeezed into the 16:9 area of the Xenarc screen). This "fix" you're talking about in our release notes of SiliconDVR in the 800x600 mode has absolutely nothing to-do with what you're talking about. The Xenarc has always operated this way. That's the way it had to operate in order to show a 4:3 image in the correct aspect ratio on a 16:9 screen.

If you do not like the smaller area of a 4:3 image "pillar-boxed" in the native 16:9 Xenarc, then you will need a native 4:3 aspect ratio 8.4" touchscreen display like this:

http://www.xenarc.com/product/840tsv.html

We can get one for you if you want. Talk to Steve or Ari for pricing info.

Quote:
I guess that then the optimum configuration is not running the SiliconDVR GUI at 800x600, and the second monitor at 1280x720. But both displays at 1280x720. Since the GUI looks right in the Xenarc at that resolution.
When you say "right", it's because it's filling the screen, and you don't like the way the 800x600 looks in the Xenarc . . . I can understand that, but also please bear with us as we work on optimizations, and if in the end you don't like the way the Xenarc looks, you can get a different one that would be more optimized for 800x600 . . . the other nice advantage of 800x600 Xenarc would be that you can swap the EVF and the Xenarc seamlessly without resetting the video card.

Quote:
Yes It does... Since is preciselly the video card-display config that comes bundled with the camera, and the issue happens even with just the Xenarc attached to the DVR. This is not a custom rig I build to work with the camera, the issues would be understandable in that case.
What I'm trying to tell you is that there is no setting in SiliconDVR that is causing these issues . . . your VIDEO CARD is setup incorrectly for the monitors you are trying to use. Intel Video Card drivers do not equal SiliconDVR. Since we have no idea what monitors everyone is going to be using with the camera, as you can basically plug in any HDMI/VGA monitor in existance that supports the resolutions from the video card, we can't simply "fix" the settings in the video card drive for one single monitor and ship the camera that way.

We ship the SI-2K for the default configuration of a single monitor set to 1280x720 for the Xenarc touchscreen screen. Alternatively we can set it for a default of a single 800x600 monitor to be natively compatible with the EVF. After that, when it comes to the plethora of multiple monitor setups that are possible with the PC-driven hardware of the SI-2K, it is up to you as the user to use the supplied Intel Video card setup program to properly setup the monitors you are using with compatible formats. We can help you configure the monitors as I am trying to-do here. Unfortunately at this point in time you cannot simply plug-and-play multiple monitors without any setup involved . . . and that means when you plug in a separate monitor, you must set the video card to the correct settings. This again, has absolutely nothing to-do with how SiliconDVR (a software program) draws to the screen. It all has to-do with the video card settings and the monitor scalers that it's hooking up to.

Quote:
I believe most of the people will need to have the ability to use at least the entire screen of the touchscreen display, to properly operate the camera.
And that is how we ship the camera. You are trying to deviate from that, and so you must setup your video card appropriately for the devices you are trying to hook into. The second video port unfortunately can't be "active" 100% of the time . . . it is like a normal PC video port that requires first the monitor to be hooked up and then your reboot the camera so that the monitor is detected. Then you set the resolution (to the optimum to prevent stretching, etc. as I have outlined for you in this thread), and then you launch SiliconDVR, which, once the video card has been setup correctly, will show the image on the screen in the correct aspect ratio.

As a quick recap, here are you possible "optimum" setups:

1) Factory default of a single 1280x720 monitor out the VGA port (typically reserved for the touchscreen

2) Factory default of a single EVF setup for 800x600

3) Dual monitors with 800x600 for the touchscreen and 1280x720 for a client monitor (pending the frame-buffer format that the destination montior requires . . . some monitors might need a 4:3 aspect ratio to scale correctly, such as the HP's, and that means 1280x1024 to get a 1280x720 image to have the correct aspect ratio).

4) Multiple monitors from configuration #3 using hardware splitters or distribution amplifiers to get additonal monitors at either 1280x720 or 800x600.
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2007, 12:20 AM   #29
Regular Crew
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mexico
Posts: 176
"Intel Video Card drivers do not equal SiliconDVR. Since we have no idea what monitors everyone is going to be using with the camera..."

Youre right in that, but I dont have those issues with any other video card here, and I have 14workstations, so maybe Im wrong.

What Im trying to say is this, you offer me a solution capable of:
Full resolution 2K and HD viewing output
Dual independent video output with HD-SDI compatibility through DVI-to-HD-SDI converters

And you delivered something very diferent than that. And then you tell me it is my fault because I didnt know you were going to deliver me a camera with no output in full resolution, and that the optimum aspect ratio for the display is 4:3, instead of 16:9, wich is by the way the monitor and resolution ive been working on with the Mini since september last year.

Why nobody told me that when I went to pick up the camera.

It is so absurd, that i dont know if I have to laugh or to cry...really Jason...

The reality is that i cant use the displays correctly now, because the computer is just not powerfull enough, so now I have to patch the solution...

What Im sugesting to you, is precisely (i dont know how to spell it correctly, sorry, I speak spanish) to optimize the application so at least, my DP can work confortly and I can review my shots in something different than an IPod.
Sergio Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 5th, 2007, 07:10 AM   #30
Trustee
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Virginia Beach, VA
Posts: 1,095
Quote:
You´re right in that, but I dont have those issues with any other video card here, and I have 14workstations, so maybe I´m wrong.
Are any of your other computers using Intel embedded video cards with the GMA950?

Quote:
Full resolution 2K and HD viewing output
Dual independent video output with HD-SDI compatibility through DVI-to-HD-SDI converters
I don't mean to sound facisious, but in my suggestions for optimum monitoring configurations, is not 1280x720 monitoring an HD format?

BTW, we do give you the full 2K FOV resolution output on the SI-2K, it's just that there are no 2K displays that don't require dual-link DVI (which doesn't work with HDMI 1.2), so it has to obviously be scaled into some lower-resolution output HDTV monitor (which is actually more ideal to use than a computer monitor since HDTV's can accept more input formats from computers and scale them appropriately) . . . and of course if you take the HDMI and convert it to HD-SDI, you can run a 1280x720 panel . . . which is an HD format. And of course if you have a video card that can do dual-link DVI, you can get 1:1 2K output on a 30" Apple/Dell/etc. monitor (unfortunately cards like that are tremendously heat and power-hungry, so there is no way we could cram a card like that in the SI-2K . . . but that doesn't mean the software can't do it, especially if you pull the MINI out).

Quote:
What Im sugesting to you, is precisely (i dont know how to spell it correctly, sorry, I speak spanish) to optimize the application
We are working on that as we speak. I think in the end you will be very glad that you have our flexible platform to work and grow with . . . what you are using today is not necessarily what you will have tomorrow because not only does our flexible software platform allow us to grow on the current platform and improve performance, but we are also able to upgrade the hardware as we go along. The SI-2K is not like previous generations of cameras that simply hit the market and that's it . . . it's a growing platform. So whether you're running the MINI off a super-powerful laptop computer with unlimited resources for monitoring, processing, etc., or you're using our embedded platform that will obviously have certain limitations based on it's form-factor and power/heat budget requirements, you have choices with our system that in the end all deliver the same top image quality, and that's not something you're going to find with other systems out there.

And again, rest assured that we are taking your situation very seriously, and are working on optimizations and feature choices that will get you were you want to go in the near-term.
Jason Rodriguez is offline   Reply
Reply

DV Info Net refers all where-to-buy and where-to-rent questions exclusively to these trusted full line dealers and rental houses...

Professional Video
(800) 833-4801
Portland, OR

B&H Photo Video
(866) 521-7381
New York, NY

Z.G.C.
(973) 335-4460
Mountain Lakes, NJ

Abel Cine Tech
(888) 700-4416
N.Y. NY & L.A. CA

Precision Camera
(800) 677-1023
Austin, TX

DV Info Net also encourages you to support local businesses and buy from an authorized dealer in your neighborhood.
  You are here: DV Info Net > High Definition Video Acquisition > HD and UHD ( 2K+ ) Digital Cinema > Silicon Imaging SI-2K

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

 



Google
 

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:29 AM.


DV Info Net -- Real Names, Real People, Real Info!
1998-2017 The Digital Video Information Network