Cineform Encoding Quality diferences?
Hi:
I just wanted to know what is the compression difference between High and Very High Cineform encoding presets? That is because I`ve been having some troubles with the RAM buffer when using Very High quality encoding. |
There is a difference, however CineForm pushes to quality to the extremes, so you will not likely ever see the difference even under extreme post processing. Silicon Imaging labels CineForm Filmscan2 as "Very High", really this we internal call "OverKill". Filmscan1 (in SI-2K as High) is design to fully reproduce the shape of film grain, so that mode should be fine.
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Hi Sergio,
Are you running two monitors or just one? If you're running two monitors and you need "Very High", use a VGA or DVI splitter so that you don't tax the GPU, which on the SI-2K is using a NUMA architecture with system memory as the frame-buffer. So when you have a lot of resolution trying to be drawn by the GPU, it's robbing memory bandwidth from the host processor. Using an external VGA or DVI splitter solves that issue. If you're going to run dual-monitors off the internal VGA, our suggestion is that you set the GUI control monitor to 800x600 and the external client monitor to 1280x720. |
Is there any way to increase the RAM in the DVR, because for me an output at that resolution is just not optimal. I had issues with matte boxes appearing on the frame. I have many solutions out there in wich i can record on data and have a ful res output, that is important a solution in wich what you see is what you get, is one of the hard points on choosing a digital workflow.
I believe that the decision to use integrated graphics instead of a dedicated video card was the wrong choice, you should remember one of the first rules in computer ingeniering (I know that and im not an ingenier, im a filmmaker) that is that the computer will be as fast as its slower component. And in this case the solution would be use more than the minimun to reach the specs and the goals you offer to your clients, not the opposite. So what can i do to improve the performance of the Camera, because I can`t compromise a day of shooting using it at is, without knowing if i can shoot a sequence or not, or fighting with the buffer. |
I thought this was an issue of CPU speed rather than ram (if the cpu is fast enough it wont use ram buffer). Jason, is it possible to swap out chips and ram in the SI-2K?
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I appreciate the advice and recommendations that you feel need to be given in this area of electronic system design, and am glad to know you feel we made the wrong choice, but if you only knew the effort and constant experiment and test platforms we built before settling on the current hardware, you would understand how this decision was reached. Now I'm sure if our design constraints where to carry around a grotesque 30lbs square fridge on your shoulder that we could start cherry-picking off-the-shelf computer components from CompUSA, but our goal was a solid integrated camera design that both behaved and looked like a camera from an ergonomic, mechanical, and electrical perspective, and was a familiar and welcoming form-factor to cinematographers, while also functioning inside of a heat and power-budget that allowed for an untethered mobile form-factor (not a 15A block-battery), and finally met a certain mechanical-shock tolerance. The electrical components in the current camera are the fastest parts we could obtain that delivered on all these requirements as well as conforming to driver compatibility specs and a number of other related aspects that deal with working in a Windows software environment. If you decide to ever crack the case open, you will notice that the boards inside look nothing like any PC motherboard you've ever seen, and there are a host of customized components integrated into that platform that make it tick that would not be available with off-the-shelf PC motherboards. This is not a New-Egg special. We have built our camera using the same performance-critical components that power the specialized computer systems operating in the Humvee's of Iraq, Railway systems, Fighter Jets, Sattelite systems, etc. Running with an Nvidia graphics card just to jump from a 1280x720 display to a 1920x1080 display would have doubled the power budget (no more little 90W/hr batteries), required extensive cooling, increased the form-factor size, and in the end, increased the price in order to create a bunch of customized components to compensate for the heat and power draw of a graphics card that was not designed to be running around on someone's shoulder anywhere in the world. And as far as notebook graphics cards go, please find for me a notebook that allows you to upgrade the graphics card . . . there aren't many, and the reason for that is that the graphics, such as the Geforce Go series, or Quadro FX mobile editions, are soldered onto a custom motherboard. We explored this solution early on, and found that it would double the price of the camera. It's one thing when you're shipping 100,000 notebooks like OEM Taiwanese manufacturers do per quarter, and its' another thing when your volumes are a lot lower and you are going to design a motherboard from scratch. And of course the big problem with desiging from scratch is that the upgrade-path becomes very limited if not impossible. The components we have chosen on the other-hand use a modular form-factor called Compact-PCI, so as Intel grows in capabilities, our camera can grow in capabilities. Another thing you fail to realize is that there is an actual lead-time on components, meaning that what you see right now was designed at least 6-8 months ago. I can't sit around and read something on a tech rumors forum and have a working prototype a month later. Parts have to go through revisions by the manufacturer themselves before they are ready for integration. In other words, not only do we have a prototyping path ourselves, integrating components into the camera design, but each and every one of the major components we choose has it's own prototyping pathway, meaning they are trying to work out bugs and design flaws in their products before we get them, so that we're not trouble-shooting their problems and can concentrate on our own. Dropping a prototype motherboard in a camera design like ours just leads to problems that are un-related to our software/hardware architecture . . . so you have to wait around for production parts from the suppliers as well. Quote:
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I do apologize if 1280x720 is not enough resolution for you, but with the current graphics chipset in the SI-2K system, that is where we are at for now. You can run the GUI at 800x600, and the external client monitor at 1280x720. If you need to analyze something, you have a 2x and 4x zoom control that lets you pan around the entire screen, enabling you to microscopically analyze the entire scene at greater than 2:1 pixel resolution. We allow you to-do a lot more for image inspection than the typical "2x center-only zoom" that you see with the cameras doing a focus-aide. |
Jason:
As Dank said to Steve, I dont think that reinstalling the OS will solve the problem, it isnt a hardware component failing, there is one driver missing though let me check out the device name and I send it out to you because I couldnt recognize the device name. The SMBus driver was missing too, I installed it, I could record more than a minute after it. I understand perfectly what you are saying to me, im not airing anything here at the forum. In fact the real answers I made were into an e-mail I sent you yesterday and in the Support forum in Cineform. Here I just wanted to know the difference between formats so you or someone at Cineform could clear it out. |
I understand the points you are trying to make about the monitor format. That is fine.
But the attacks about not knowing how to correctly design the camera I think are going a bit too far. While my reaction may have been a bit thorough and over-the-top, it's stemming from the fact that I'm a bit irritated this was originally a private opinion solicited by one of your fellow co-workers in an email (which is of course justified . . . you can email me anything you want, and while I might not be happy hearing the criticism, I'll professionally take it), and now it's making it's way to this public forum, despite the fact that I've already answered it once in a nice professional manner. I hope you can see that having to repeat myself and defend our design cycle now on a public forum is not making me too happy. I like giving people help. I don't like hearing arm-chair quarterbacking on what we did right/wrong and how you would have fixed it when your "fix" is one dead-end routes we actually investigated and even spent months building a dead prototype around. The path to market hasn't been painless, but I believe in the end we've been making the best design decisions we could with the resources we currently have available. I will be the first to admit that best-fit compromises were made based on what would have been an "ideal" platform on-paper (i.e., our pie-in-the-sky unlimited platform pipe-dream), but compromise is part of every engineering product - reach the best end-goal possible for the resources you have at hand, whether they are limited by the laws of physics, mechanical requirements, functionality, avoiding incompatibilities, and of course budget. The good news is that everything we've done has been forward looking, and as far as performance goes, the road for Moore's law only goes up. |
It would be interesting to see if outfits like Sony, Panasonic, JVC, Canon etc., would as frankly and honestly discuss their trade secrets directly with their customers or on an open forum.
Even if it is way way out of my league, it remains refreshing to see the direct interaction between providers and clients that is occurring with entities like Cineform, SI, RED, where the culture of the enthusiast has not been suffocated within a larger corporate mass. A little self-governance on the part of forum participants might be in order if this openess is to continue. |
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I can remember last December the anger and frustration after realizing that we had a DOA (dead-on-arrival) product in our hands after building what was suppose to be a fully working prototype based on a GPU-powered system. On paper everything should have worked, and individually the components all worked fine in a test-bench situation. But once it was all assembled, and we attempted to put it though it's paces, it flat-out didn't work for what was required of it, that is a tetherless mobile system that worked like a "real" camera, and could withstand the abuse of a "real" camera. As a result we had to work overtime going through a complete re-design from electronics through the form-factor between then and NAB in April. The good news is that we learned from our mistakes and dead-ends, and we've made a vastly better product as a result. |
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I order to meet the criteria for ruggedness, we ended up having to move away from socket designs (which can come loose over time or during vibration/shock, and cause instabilty issues or crashes that are hard to diagnose), and instead go with a soldered design where the RAM and the processor is soldered onto the motherboard. That being said, the cPCI form-factor allows you to swap out motherboard for newer designs later. So what we've done with the current set of boards is we've gotten the fastest parts possible, and put them on. When a new chipset/boardset is available, we can swap out the current board and put a new one in (and it's fairly straight-forward since it's the entire board in a socket). The upgrades of course will cost more than buying a single CPU/RAM combo, but then of course Intel makes sure that you have to purchase a new motherboard every time a new chipset comes out, so this board-swap would end up happening anyways. Going from a slower to a faster processor in a given family is one thing, but in our case we are already at the top tier for this chipset. Our goal was to use a sub-system that gave us the easiest upgrade path while also maintaining the required rugged form-factor required for the intended abuse that the camera would go through. Using mission-critical and military spec'ed parts would be the logical path to go as those industries have similar requirements as well. While Intel embedded graphics right now are a pain in the butt to work with, the good news is that Intel is on a very aggressive pathway to increase embedded graphics performance by over 10x in the next 18 months, basically making embedded graphics equivalent to what would right now be considered a pretty decent gaming card. Of course 18 months is a long ways off for someone who is shooting right now, so rest assured that we have other near-term options on the table that we are currently developing that will help any performance deficit that is currently in our embedded platform. But I just wanted to let you know that we've tried, and are continually trying to keep the platform as flexible as possible. And then another thing to remember is that every SI-2K is also a MINI as well . . . so if there's something that is simply not working, you can always pull the MINI out and plug it into another box/laptop, etc. That of course is not an intended work-around, but I guess I'm just trying to say there are many ways to stay up with the latest-and-greatest that other camera systems don't offer you the flexibility of taking advantage of. |
All of this makes for compelling reading. It would have been better if we'd all been kept in the loop as things progressed (or didn't). Some of us have what for us are not small sums of money tied up in this project, it'd help no end if we knew what was the cause of the seemingly endless delays.
From the outside until today here's how it looked: NAB 2006 you had a working prototype camera. You decided to repackage the camera for cosmetic reasons. NAB 2007 you have the working repackaged camera and 6 months later it's still not shipping. Should mention I suppose at various points along the way a few announcements of new features but nothing about actually shipping a working camera. As has been explained, that's so far from the situation as to be laughable but until we're all told otherwise what else are we to think, so please, continue to keep us informed of both the good news and the bad. |
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In fact with all the films that we've been involved in shooting haven't had that problem either. I don't know how that happened. Sergio, can you elaborate on your setup that caused this issue? |
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One thing to note is that SiliconDVR was designed to meet the requirements of the SI-2K electronics. With a more powerful system that has unlimited resources, like gaming laptops or desktops, etc, you can naturally do more, but the SI-2K is not performance starved. Of course if you drop from the gaming laptop to the SI-2K, this might seem like the case, but it's not. In other words, if you hadn't used the powerful laptop/desktop, and you came to the SI-2K natively, you wouldn't be trying to-do on the SI-2K what you can do with the gaming laptop and then call it "performance starved". |
The problem is that those artifacts, was not appearing on the preview display, when recording. But I finally discovered them in post produccion, when scaled the frame to fit the workspace.
I had those problems when shooting 2k and previewing with 1920x1200 display resolution. Now that I have to go below that resolution the problem is getting worse. That mean that the Silicon DVR is not scaling the frame properly. Of course I can always zoom on the image in post to fix it but you have to mess up the framing of the camera, and if you are using very elaborate composition schemes as we were doing you have to compromize your shot. Or loose some extra detail. I was using zeiss primes as well, and is getting worse with the resolution of the preview going down. The aspect ratio is not corrected either in the second display so if you`re using widescreen displays you see the frame streched out when usign 1280x720. The idea of previewing a shot is to be able to feel the atmosphere of a shot right on camera when shooting. Of course you can go back and Shoot like, Hitchcock just looking at your actors in a point view close to the camera, but i feel is a step back, given all the advances in technology. I feel that this problem, is like loosing one eye in your shooting. |
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In fact, I'm attaching an example. What has been done in this image, is I've taken a scree-grab of the interface, and I've then taken a frame from the recording of this scene, and I've done a 50/50 overlay of the recorded image with the display image. You will notice that it looks like one image . . . that's because it *is* one image, meaning the display preview and the recorded file are the same. One thing I have seen in the past is where someone was accidentally zoomed in 2x and didn't realize it. Of course now we have widgets on the screen and an indicator at the top that tells you if you're zoomed in great than 1:1. Quote:
Now I have seen where certain digital input displays, like computer monitors, won't themselves scale an image properly unless you input the native resolution of the monitor, i.e., some 24" LCD's won't scale a 1280x720 input signal correctly because the screen is natively 1920x1200, and it requires that same aspect ratio input which is 16:10, so it will stretch a 16:9 signal incorrectly. But that's not the fault of SiliconDVR. Quote:
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In that shot at the right you can see the matte box showing, that was not in the display, I can say it because I was the one in front of the large display and It is not the first time that happens. A 2x zoom would be a C.U of the horse, and the composition in this shot was a little closer than this so there is no way the DP accidentally press the zoom since I asked a Over Shoulder not a Close Shot, as you say it is a 24" display and it is stretching horizontaly so i guess the answer will be to use a Mini instead to have the display correctly since, I cant change the displays now for a "native 1024x720" so I can monitor on set what i get from the camera.
The strangest of all is that If connect another 720p device to the display, even when its native resolutions is 1920x1200, the aspect ratio is ok, but when I connect the SI2K it isnt. The configuration is exactly the same you left when the camera was delivered, I just reinstalled the Silicon DVR because the IRIDAS app wasnt working. (After reinstalled it worked) |
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Thanks for the image Sergio.
From my measurements in Photoshop, and if I'm interpreting correctly what was the matte-box in this image, it seems that somehow 6% of the entire recorded image was cropped from the display so that you could not see what was in the left 6% of the frame. Is this correct? I'm uploading an image here to demonstrate what I'm talking about. If that is the case, and you say this happens on multiple events, where the left 6% of the screen is cropped from the display, can you give use the settings you're using so that we can diagnose this issue properly? I'm endevouring to reproduce this issue, and I simply can't. I keep getting a 1:1 image on my screen . . . 6% is quite a bit if you think about it. That's over 120 pixels that the image would be cropped on the left in a 2K image. Quote:
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Thanks, Jason |
The incorrect ratio of the display has happened to me too. I have tried all the settings that there is but never managed to get both the displays to show the correct ratio.
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Can you let us know what monitors you are using? We've been testing with Samsung monitors, and haven't had ratio problem issues. So this might depend on the monitor you are using.
Secondly, an aspect ratio issue is not the same as the severe cropping issue that Sergio seems to be suggesting is occurring and we can't reproduce here with our equipment. |
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Im using 800x600 in the Xenarc using the VGA, and 1280x720 on the HP LP2465 connected trough the HDMI output, In fact in both monitors the image is streched. The GUI on the Xenarc is not using the entire screen as it does when working on 1280x768 (some how is the only mode in wich it fits the entire screen).
The resolution is set to 32bits, DualMonitor is in Extended Mode. The aspect ratio option on the xenarc is set to fullscreen (no borders). Im using Silicon DVR 423. The driver Im missing is F14BC device in smb-slot2, i couldnt find a driver for that device. |
In the image attached you can see what Im saying about the SiliconDVR not sacaling properly. The two upper images are at the same resolution, the desktop is using the entire screen, but when I run the Silicon DVR the image is streched horizontally.
The Image below shows how the monitor is framing the shot at 1920x1200, the aspect is right at that resolution. The same happens with the Xenarc display, at 800x600 the aspect is not right and I cant use the entire screen. |
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I forgot the attatchment, sorry.
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Okay, the fix for the Xenarc is simple . . . in 800x600 mode hit the "M" button on the from of the Xenarc twice. The first time it should bring up one on-screen-display, the second time you press the "M" button you will get a second screen. At the bottom of the screen is an Aspect Ratio correction setting. It is normally set to 16:9, but you need to set it to 4:3 when working with 800x600 material. To-do so simply hit the "s" button to move down to the Aspect Ratio correction setting, and then press one of the arrow keys to select the 4:3 setting. That should fix the aspect ratio issues with the Xenarc.
For the HP monitor, you have to set the monitor at 1280x1024 (4:3 aspect ratio) in order to get the correct aspect ratio for a 1280x720 image unless you run at the native resolution of the monitor (i.e., 1680x1050 in the case of a 20" and 1920x1200 in the case of a 23-24"). Because you will again be setting a 4:3 resolution in a 16:10 monitor, you will have a black boarder around the picture, but at least the aspect ratio will be correct. This seems to be an odd issue with the HP's, or whatever electronic chipset they are using for the digital input. They don't necessarily like the 1280x720 input from the camera for whatever reason, and prefer a common 4:3 input like 1280x1024, or the native input of the display which would be 1680x1050 for a 20" and 1920x1200 for a 24". Other wide-screen resolutions don't seem to work right and do cause stretching. At least that's what I've experienced when setting up the camera with HP monitors (which we have tested and successfully gotten to work with the correct aspect ratio). BTW, Sergio, please do not confuse SiliconDVR with the display card. You keep repeating that "SiliconDVR is not scaling properly" . . . SiliconDVR simply is drawing whatever goes to the screen. It has no control over screen aspect ratios or resolutions. The issue is not with how SiliconDVR draws to the screen. The monitor and video card combination are not being interpreted correctly, and that is creating an aspect ratio issue as the monitor is trying to interpret a signal and then display that signal from the video card, and in this case it's doing it wrong. That has nothing to-do with SiliconDVR. Thanks, Jason |
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Jason:
The reason I`m saying that the SiliconDVR software is not working correctly is because, In the build 422 of the software, in the build fixes posted on the SI2K website, you said that the you fixed working in 800x600 resolution, well, working with the image streched down or not being able to use the entire touchscreen is not a correction for me. Scaling to 4:3 makes the working area even smaller, im loosing almost half of the working area of the touchscreen. Maybe if you have a small kid, with very small fingers as camera operator, you will not have trouble with the interface, but my problem is that I use adult crew, It will be very uncomfortable to work that way. I`ve tried all the above methods you mentioned before telling you I was facing issues with the display, but none of the configurations I used worked for me. Only working 1240x720 on the Xenarc fixed the thing, but the cost is performance, so thats not an option. There must be a work arround for the problem. "The issue is not with how SiliconDVR draws to the screen. The monitor and video card combination are not being interpreted correctly, and that is creating an aspect ratio issue as the monitor is trying to interpret a signal and then display that signal from the video card, and in this case it's doing it wrong. That has nothing to-do with SiliconDVR" Yes It does... Since is preciselly the video card-display config that comes bundled with the camera, and the issue happens even with just the Xenarc attached to the DVR. This is not a custom rig I build to work with the camera, the issues would be understandable in that case. I believe most of the people will need to have the ability to use at least the entire screen of the touchscreen display, to properly operate the camera. |
I guess that then the optimum configuration is not running the SiliconDVR GUI at 800x600, and the second monitor at 1280x720. But both displays at 1280x720. Since the GUI looks right in the Xenarc at that resolution.
And the other is using 17" monitors to have the right aspect ratio and resolution, since I find a real waste of space and money carrying arround 24" and above monitors if you will only see a small box inside. A vga splitter doesnt looks as a great idea for me, since you`ll only be able to output at 1280x720 in clone mode, so you will loose even more area in you video village display, unless operator feels confortable to work without the GUI tools on the primary display. Did you find the missing driver? Maybe it doesnt affect performance, at all...But I dont think that installing it will harm it either. |
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I feel we are talking past each other here . . . The Xenarc, because it is a 16:9 monitor, when it shows a 4:3 image, must show the image in a "pillar-box", that is the 4:3 image will sit in the middle of the screen, and there will be black on the edges. Please remember that the GUI is 16:9, but there is also a full-screen mode that will blow the image up into the 4:3 area (that would be pillar-box squeezed into the 16:9 area of the Xenarc screen). This "fix" you're talking about in our release notes of SiliconDVR in the 800x600 mode has absolutely nothing to-do with what you're talking about. The Xenarc has always operated this way. That's the way it had to operate in order to show a 4:3 image in the correct aspect ratio on a 16:9 screen. If you do not like the smaller area of a 4:3 image "pillar-boxed" in the native 16:9 Xenarc, then you will need a native 4:3 aspect ratio 8.4" touchscreen display like this: http://www.xenarc.com/product/840tsv.html We can get one for you if you want. Talk to Steve or Ari for pricing info. Quote:
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We ship the SI-2K for the default configuration of a single monitor set to 1280x720 for the Xenarc touchscreen screen. Alternatively we can set it for a default of a single 800x600 monitor to be natively compatible with the EVF. After that, when it comes to the plethora of multiple monitor setups that are possible with the PC-driven hardware of the SI-2K, it is up to you as the user to use the supplied Intel Video card setup program to properly setup the monitors you are using with compatible formats. We can help you configure the monitors as I am trying to-do here. Unfortunately at this point in time you cannot simply plug-and-play multiple monitors without any setup involved . . . and that means when you plug in a separate monitor, you must set the video card to the correct settings. This again, has absolutely nothing to-do with how SiliconDVR (a software program) draws to the screen. It all has to-do with the video card settings and the monitor scalers that it's hooking up to. Quote:
As a quick recap, here are you possible "optimum" setups: 1) Factory default of a single 1280x720 monitor out the VGA port (typically reserved for the touchscreen 2) Factory default of a single EVF setup for 800x600 3) Dual monitors with 800x600 for the touchscreen and 1280x720 for a client monitor (pending the frame-buffer format that the destination montior requires . . . some monitors might need a 4:3 aspect ratio to scale correctly, such as the HP's, and that means 1280x1024 to get a 1280x720 image to have the correct aspect ratio). 4) Multiple monitors from configuration #3 using hardware splitters or distribution amplifiers to get additonal monitors at either 1280x720 or 800x600. |
"Intel Video Card drivers do not equal SiliconDVR. Since we have no idea what monitors everyone is going to be using with the camera..."
You´re right in that, but I dont have those issues with any other video card here, and I have 14workstations, so maybe I´m wrong. What Im trying to say is this, you offer me a solution capable of: Full resolution 2K and HD viewing output Dual independent video output with HD-SDI compatibility through DVI-to-HD-SDI converters And you delivered something very diferent than that. And then you tell me it is my fault because I didnt know you were going to deliver me a camera with no output in full resolution, and that the optimum aspect ratio for the display is 4:3, instead of 16:9, wich is by the way the monitor and resolution i´ve been working on with the Mini since september last year. Why nobody told me that when I went to pick up the camera. It is so absurd, that i dont know if I have to laugh or to cry...really Jason... The reality is that i cant use the displays correctly now, because the computer is just not powerfull enough, so now I have to patch the solution... What Im sugesting to you, is precisely (i dont know how to spell it correctly, sorry, I speak spanish) to optimize the application so at least, my DP can work confortly and I can review my shots in something different than an IPod. |
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BTW, we do give you the full 2K FOV resolution output on the SI-2K, it's just that there are no 2K displays that don't require dual-link DVI (which doesn't work with HDMI 1.2), so it has to obviously be scaled into some lower-resolution output HDTV monitor (which is actually more ideal to use than a computer monitor since HDTV's can accept more input formats from computers and scale them appropriately) . . . and of course if you take the HDMI and convert it to HD-SDI, you can run a 1280x720 panel . . . which is an HD format. And of course if you have a video card that can do dual-link DVI, you can get 1:1 2K output on a 30" Apple/Dell/etc. monitor (unfortunately cards like that are tremendously heat and power-hungry, so there is no way we could cram a card like that in the SI-2K . . . but that doesn't mean the software can't do it, especially if you pull the MINI out). Quote:
And again, rest assured that we are taking your situation very seriously, and are working on optimizations and feature choices that will get you were you want to go in the near-term. |
"We can get one for you if you want. Talk to Steve or Ari for pricing info."
Sergio,
Unless you've got money to burn, you might want to order this yourself. Last week I asked SI to get me their recommended touchscreen monitor for the SI-2K (I've never been able to find a product or price list for their accessories on their website). They charged me $1,046 and sent me a Xenarc 700 TSV, which Xenarc sells for $369 on their own website. Needless to say, I'm sending it back to them today. Gary Moss |
Sergio,
What is at the core of this discussion is whether we should have the SI-2K hardware and SiliconDVR software be open ended or closed. If we release this camera and lock down all configurations that we currently approve of, this discussion would be unnecessary. In a closed camera, you would select either touchscreen (1280x720) or EVF (800x600) mode. Each mode would only put out one secondary video stream that we select - buy the correct monitor or don't use that output. We could even brand the displays "SI" so you would get them from us. That is not the concept behind this camera. We want you to be able to use third party displays, mass storage and other accessories. We are in early production now and have not experimented with every combination of input and output devices for the camera. As you can see, we are quite willing to spend any amount of time, both publicly and privately to assist you in new configurations. For the most part, our specs for the camera have been improving - major additions like embedded Iridas OnSet and smaller ones like 50% recall mode. At times, we may not meet our original expectations. This has never been to the detriment of the recorded image quality. That is what we strive for first and foremost. Your group has been on the cutting edge of our products. You are doing great work with them. I recognize that this has caused both of us some pain but I hope you don't doubt that we are trying to resolve your issues. Best Regards, Steve Nordhauser |
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Of course I have no problems with you getting it direct from Xenarc, but just saying, there should be a difference. I didn't handle the Xenarc customization stuff so that's why there's some uncertainty in my tone. I'd be curious to know what you find out. But again, getting everything direct from us is not necessarily the way to go with every item . . . that's why we have an "open" platform. |
OK, I did some checking up on the Xenarc monitors. Here is the full story. We were paying a premium for high brightness monitors. The ones from the Xenarc site are now all high brightness - this is recent. In addition to the monitor kit itself, our pricing also includes the flexible arm and a custom Lemo cable for powering the Xenarc off of the 2K power connectors.
Our price includes these items, the ability to sell through discounted distribution channels and the support (handling warranty and repair problems, etc). Gary is absolutely correct that this price is above the parts cost and we have no problems with his going direct. This is not a "Silicon Imaging" branded monitor - it is an off-the-shelf unit with the above additions. Same attitude on media. We sell empty carriers or full ones. We will give you Seagate part numbers for the hard drives if you want to build your own. Regards, Steve Nordhauser |
Gary:
The precise issue in this discussion is that if you use that display and need a secondo output (as most of the people does) you will need to adjust the resolution of the touchscreen to 800x600, loosing almost 40% of the screen area. You and me are using the recommended hardware, thats why I dont understand, and im not willing to accept an excuse as a solution. My only sugestion is to make some kind of optimization to preserve all the features that makes the camera functional and interesting. Steve, the question is not if you have to close the solution, even as open as it is, you have to make it work flawless and smooth at the recommended settings. Im using the recommended display, the app only runs well at 1280x768, and now you tell me that I have to sacrifice the working resolution if I wanto to output to a second monitor wich is the case in almost every production enviroment. You say is the fault of the display manufacturers because they dont support your resolution, but if you`re developing an open solution you are the ones who need to be flexible. Right now im limited to work only at that resolution because otherwise Im not going to be able to record more than a minute. So there is a compromise in flexibility. At the end these kind of limitations makes the solution not as open as you feel it is, thats the point i was trying to make here. In the Mini version, is another story if we speak about the flexibility of the solution, I can run it in almost any configuration available, even in a Macbook, thats cool. But in the operability side it has disadvantages when compared to the full DVR, but I loose all the flexibility of the Mini, and compromise some features too, of course there has to be a way to solve this, and im shure you`re working on that. But being defensive, and blaming the manufacturers you chose, is certanly not the right approach to a posible solution. Im using, as Gary and many guys who are using the camera right now, the touchscreen display you recommended me to use, I got it from you last month. Yesterday, Jason told me that I have to change the display you are recommending for another one, as an excuse for the incorrect aspect resolution...thats the main problem, here. It`s absurd. If your recommended display configuration is the Xenarc at 800x600, then you have to fix the app to display correctly in the touchscreen you recommended us to use. Believe me that I know very well, how to set up a monitor, and I dont use Intel video cards because of all the problems I`ve seen in the past with all the video cards that Intel manufactures. And now I can see that things arent getting better for Intel in the video area. I understand that you were forced to take that path, but that doesnt mean i have to agree with you. Apart of the resolution issues, wich I wont accept in any way until you find a solution, or give me the video hardware update. I was asking if im able to use more than 2Gb in the camera right now as it is as im trying to find a solution as well as you. I now there will be new software builds, with more features and solutions. If Im telling you my issues, is because maybe you have to check some little bug, or adjust something to make it work better. I believe that discussing this kind of issues will make the SI2K a better camera, thats the point. And I agree with Bob Grant (i think he was the one who posted it) that it is great if im able to discuss this kind of stuff directly with the guys responsible of making the camera work. Steve I know you`re working on those issues. |
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From my reading of all of the above it seems that the issue at hand here goes back to a problem that occurred late last year. The original design wouldn't fly and so the SI-2K's internals were redesigned. That meant some features were lost or compromised. Nothing unusual with that. What is disturbing is that we weren't told about this, that we've had to wait until a camera was delivered and a user starts jumping up and down for this information to see the light of day. Winding the clock back, if we'd been told about the issues with the original design back at the end of last year, we might have accepted that the thing needed a bigger box, more fans, a monster battery and the odd connector reseated or an extra 'spare' camera or two on location. I can't speak for anyone else or even really know how we would have reacted to that news but I can only see being told the news and all of us given the opportunity to comment as a positive thing, who knows we might all have been fine with those compromises. Might have saved SI a bundle of money and gotten cameras delivered much quicker. One of the few things that I do know is that being able to give the client a full raster preview with a Look applied is a pretty big selling point. If that isn't an option with the SI-2K in 16:9 2K @ 24fps, if we need the MINI connected to some number crunching monster or whatever, no problem here with that. What is a problem is not knowing this until this late stage. And yes, we accept that this is a work in progress, we now have some insight into how hard a road this has been for SI to take. I say again though, knowing just where the progress is at and how hard the road is impacts all of us, keeping us in the dark achieves nothing apart from more 'Sergios' getting understandably upset. |
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Now you are taking the flexibility of the SI-2K platform and adding more onto it . . . in this case a second monitor. This second monitor of course changes the scenario compared to how an optimal single monitor configuration would be set-up. The flexibility of the SI-2K platform is that you can configure it any way you like with any monitoring solution you like, whether it's provided from us, or from a third-party. Furthermore we knew that people may not want to use Xenarc's at all, they may like monitors from a number of different vendors like Marshall, etc., and they may not even want a touchscreen. So we found a hardware input device that would still let you use the GUI effectively. I guess what you're faulting us with is the fact that the SI-2K is not a fixed add-on device like other closed-hardware cameras in the past behave, meaning that you add one thing, and then no configuration changes need to be made if you want to tack on anything else . . . that unfortunately isn't the case. The philosophy of the system is "openness", but that also means there are going to be times where if you change the accessory set (in this case adding a second monitor), you are going to have to change the setup of the system's video card for it to still run optimally. If everything was "fixed" and we said you can only use XYZ, then we can't allow you to take advantage of market forces which are perpetually moving forward . . . our camera would be strapped to the weakest accessory. That is not the case with our open platform. You can add any monitor you want. You can upgrade the hardware in the future. You can accessorize as you need with popular and cost-effective third-party solutions that are driven by market forces, not our proprietary and arbitrary standards. Quote:
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I was fixing the resolution, and everybody who was entering the room always said...Whats wrong with the monitor? Isnt that to small?...Is it suppossed to look like that?... I`m going to take a picture of Andy the D.P trying to use the touchscreen at 800x600 with the image scaled down... He was very unconfortable using the interface with his small finger. Another thing is that it is very dificult for the camera operator to adjust the focus using the Xenarc, and lowering the resolution will make it more difficult. So it thats why it is very important to have a second monitor to check critical stuff, as focus, or makeup. I dont believe im the only one that shoots using a second output from the camera (even when shooting on film I always call a video assist). Now that you tell me that for you a second display is not a primary feature. I tell you it isnt. The primary purpose of the camera is to capture images, compelling and beatiful images, so all the tools that let you mantain the deepest control possible of the quality of the images you`re capturing is primordial. The ability of previewing at a good size is very important to, I cant finish with a blind and arthritic camera operator. |
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