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Silicon Imaging SI-2K
2/3" 1080p IT-integrated 10-bit digital cinema w/direct-to-disk recording.


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Old April 25th, 2006, 09:04 PM   #31
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RAW and HD100

David,

In your blog you said "Prosumer HD cameras pump up the image to make it look cool straight out of the box, this limits the dynamic range the degree the image can be corrected in post."

My question is: To what extent the "pumping of the image" can be undone in the HD100 (varying the settings) to avoid limiting of the dinamic range, so indeed it can be used as RAW footage that could be modified by the CineForm Color Matrix Settings without burning the data into the RAW image, same way you are doing with the SI camera?

Thanks,

Luis Otero


PS

Somehow, I always felt that using my single sensor HD10 was giving me great footage, even better than any footage I have seen by the Sony 3CCD cameras, inspite the limitation of parameters control of the HD10. I love my new HD100, make no mistake about it, but I never was bodered by having a single sensor HDV camera since my footage was always great
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Old April 26th, 2006, 01:48 AM   #32
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You can turn much of the processing off on the HD100, yet you only have a somewhat heavily compressed 8-bit, so it my not be the optimum use of the available bits to run the image flat (unless you capturing pre-MPEG via an Xena LH, then you can use 10-bit.)
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Old April 26th, 2006, 08:03 AM   #33
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OK, running your scenario (10-bit capturing), would it be possible to use that image as the RAW footage obtaining the same results with ProspectHD?

Thanks,
Luis
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Old April 26th, 2006, 09:18 AM   #34
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Yes and no. RAW is deferent frame structure, so you don't get "RAW", however you do now have the abilities to color correct the image to a wide range than you could previously. It is quite a flexible a the SI camera, but turn off or down color matrix and sharpening with the camera is a common step to get you more control in post.
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Old April 26th, 2006, 11:22 AM   #35
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David, why do you not want to make implementation of Cineform RAW in fpga?
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Old April 26th, 2006, 02:10 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
Yes and no. RAW is deferent frame structure, so you don't get "RAW", however you do now have the abilities to color correct the image to a wide range than you could previously. It is quite a flexible a the SI camera, but turn off or down color matrix and sharpening with the camera is a common step to get you more control in post.
David,

As there are currently reported 12,000 owners of the HD100 (plus the owners of the new two versions anounced at NAB), would Cineform contemplate the possibility to get involved in a project like that in which you would help with the camera settings to obtain "as RAW as possible" footage out of this equipment so we can use Prospect the same way is being used with the SI camera to manipulate the color correction without affecting the original footage? I imagine it would makes business sence for Cineform due to the amount of potential buyers/users, right?

Luis Otero


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I would be more than happy to get involved in a beta group like that if the final results will help us to get such great images as posted in your blog and in the SI site!
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Old April 27th, 2006, 12:26 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Otero
camera settings to obtain "as RAW as possible" footage
In the end doesn't work that way. You have a 3 chip camera, that is good thing, RAW technology applies to single chip CCD or CMOS cameras. The idea of removing as much camera processing to presevere post flexibility is a well known technique, it can be applied to a HD100 with any extra software development.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 05:01 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
RAW technology applies to single chip CCD or CMOS cameras.
The Reel Stream Andromeda records uncompressed RGB (4:4:4) direct from
3 CCD of Panasonic DVX100 camcorder, before any processing is done.
This uncompressed RGB different from RAW of CMOS?
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Old April 27th, 2006, 10:14 AM   #39
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Serge,

The Reel Stream Andromeda case is in fact much more like RAW bayer than than the three CCD solution with HD100. As each of the color planes are offset with a pixel shift the image can be developed into a high resolution, just like bayer processing of a single sensor. I have spoken Reel Stream a few times now, include demostrating CineFormRAW in action at NAB.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 10:28 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Serge Victorovich
David, why do you not want to make implementation of Cineform RAW in fpga?
Who said we didn't want to do that. :)
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Old April 27th, 2006, 11:32 AM   #41
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WOW! When and who next beside of SI? Imo, CineformRAW for RED camera will be good choice:)
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Old April 27th, 2006, 02:52 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
In the end doesn't work that way. You have a 3 chip camera, that is good thing, RAW technology applies to single chip CCD or CMOS cameras. The idea of removing as much camera processing to presevere post flexibility is a well known technique, it can be applied to a HD100 with any extra software development.
David,

This is the great thing about this community: you learn something new every time you are participating.

To be completely honest, I was not aware that it is "a well known technique" to do such procedure. So, would you point me to any particular area where that is taught/explained (basicaly, how it is done)? Also, I am not sure I understand what do you mean by "any extra software development". Are you referring to Prospect?

Thasks for iluminating me,

Luis Otero
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:17 PM   #43
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Luis,

Techniques I refer to are probably not written up in any concise form, the basic idea is you don't want the camera to do things that you can do in post, but can't undo in post. A good example is sharping. Camera will sharpen the image, all CCD/CMOS image do need some sharpening, however removing the camera sharpen in post in not possible (short of blurring the entire image), yet added the sharping you need in post is much easier. Same goes for color the matrices and saturation controls. So much in camera will limit what you can do in post. In the ideal post world you can use everything the sensor "sees" and store this with high accuracy, however the 8-bit limitation of most cameras do limit how much you want to go without some camera processing, 10-bit gives you a lot more freedom to do this.
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:25 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Newman
Luis,

Techniques I refer to are probably not written up in any concise form, the basic idea is you don't want the camera to do things that you can do in post, but can't undo in post. A good example is sharping. Camera will sharpen the image, all CCD/CMOS image do need some sharpening, however removing the camera sharpen in post in not possible (short of blurring the entire image), yet added the sharping you need in post is much easier. Same goes for color the matrices and saturation controls. So much in camera will limit what you can do in post. In the ideal post world you can use everything the sensor "sees" and store this with high accuracy, however the 8-bit limitation of most cameras do limit how much you want to go without some camera processing, 10-bit gives you a lot more freedom to do this.
David,

Thanks for the information. The sharpenning area is well known, however other areas are not. That is why there are so many scene files being developed and shared within this forum, and I was wondering if you are aware of them, and have a professional opinion as to which one will give you the "like-RAW" footage. That could be a good start for us, the owners of HD100...

Also, I am aware of the 10-bit issue, so I am taking that for granted: it needs to be aquired through the component output into a computer using Prospect.

Thanks again,

Luis
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Old April 27th, 2006, 03:39 PM   #45
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Scenes files take the "raw" (lower case for non-bayer) sensor data, apply a color matrix to give a target result close to your color corrected look. That is fine if you get the look right and don't clip the data. The same look can be generated in post if you didn't apply the scene file. The advantage of the raw approach is all the color correction output are possible, using a scene file you narrow your post options. The disadvantage of the raw approach is you have to color correct everything. It will depend on the project whether you setup your color in camera (faster) or in post (more flexible.) I don't know the menus well enough in the HD100U to turn the color matrix off.
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