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Silicon Imaging SI-2K
2/3" 1080p IT-integrated 10-bit digital cinema w/direct-to-disk recording.


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Old March 15th, 2007, 12:19 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Don Donatello View Post
perhaps a better price comparison would be looking at camera body( 17500), 1 batt/charger (1200) , 1 drive (900), LCD (1700) = 21,500 for RED ... and SI2k = ?
You might have to include the basic rail kit to get that into a comparable shooting configuration with the SI 2K, but yes, there is little point in comparing the cost of a kit with a lens to that of a camera kit without a lens.

However, it's not wise to go out doing serious filming having only bought one battery for your kit. This is like buying any camera, it's the overall cost of the working shooting package that matters.

One piece of RED kit that will work on the SI is the B4 adapter for people wanting to shoot with 2/3" video lenses.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 02:47 PM   #17
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i left the lens out because everybody has their own preference - one prefers a zeiss maybe another canon? i don't know how many batts come with SI2k ??
so let both packages be the same ... include 2 batts ( add 450 to red) , same lens ( PL or B4), also don't forget to include device to record audio for the SI ? ... but maybe the camera's are too different and it's not apples to apples ??? so price comparison doesn't matter - and it does come down to what you really need ( & use) and one could be more/less depending what you buy in TOTAL camera package and for those that need post including post workflow = entry price point will be different for each person/business....

when Jason mentions all these different NATIVE clips in same time line ( p2, mFX, cineform raw, cineform intermediate etc ) what NLE is playing back all those "natively" in RT ( including 10 bit ) ??? ...
unless you know something the gerneral public we don't know all the workflows of RED or what/if redcode can play back native in any/which NLE ?? ... we do know that if one shoots REDcode we can use their product to render the clip to cineform intermediate ( don't know about cineform raw) ...

from the little i know about REDcode it doesn't seem anymore in it's own world then cineforms raw codec ? or for that matter cineform intermediate .. to get to cineform intermediate i believe you have to render from a native codec to cineform intermediate ? so what's the difference between that & if you have a redcode clip and you render to cineform intermediate ?...
i had some film scanned at pixel harvest . it was NOT scanned directly to cineform - it was scanned to another codec/data 1st then rendered out to cineform intermediate ...i do convert HDV/p2 to CF intermediate & CF products are excellent ...

i don't know the fine details on REDcode at NAB we'll know those details- perhaps you know more ? perhaps cineform knows a little more ??

i have use for both camera's so i don't have to choose between them..
i've been waiting to see the final design of the SI2K ? i can use the detachable head on many projects and i want the recording body with it ( vs the mini with laptop) ... been waiting to see the accessory list for SI2K & mini ? hoping to see it ALL at NAB ...
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Old March 15th, 2007, 03:08 PM   #18
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Stop by booth SL7826 . . . we'll definitely have some exciting things to share . . . :)
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Old March 15th, 2007, 03:24 PM   #19
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cineform & SI2k are in my top 10 NAB list ..
looking forward to seeing the LUT's applied to viewing monitor etc ..
will you be there Jason ?
if yes - see you on 16 & 17
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Old March 15th, 2007, 04:39 PM   #20
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Yep, I'll be there . . . should I be looking for the bright Hawaiian shirt? ;)
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Old March 15th, 2007, 05:02 PM   #21
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Yes, if you want to spot Donatello then you should be looking for a bright Hawaiian shirt. After all, he is the Hawaiian Shirt Mogul.
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Old March 15th, 2007, 05:46 PM   #22
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One thing that I will be interested to see when I get a chance to chat with Graeme at NAB will be the workflow from RAW. The graphic on the RED website (which is more a promotional tool than a schematic certainly) seems to show the footage being brought out of RAW before "ingest" into an editing system to be cut...I'm not sure if that is the case or not.

The CineForm RAW footage shot on the SI can have the settings for final process out of RAW altered on the PPro timeline right up until master out...there is no additional steps. Simply bring it in, use the OnSet LUT assigned, or dump it and make a new one, and cut away...change your mind on the LUT 25 times if you want as the adjustment is non-destructive.

I think there is a place for both products certainly, but understanding the workflow associated with each in very clear terms will be the key to making the right choice...

NAB will undoubtedly be interesting. I'll be in the CineForm booth as far as I know. Maybe we'll see some of you.


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Old March 15th, 2007, 08:34 PM   #23
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As, adding onto what Tim said, the Look file is also operating in a 32-bit float environment at the codec level, so for instance, you can color-correct footage that might have a really radical or contrasty "look", and can manupulate the values that are over 1.0. Same thing with saturation, etc.

So not only can you swap out a .look file, but you can also use the native toolset of the host NLE application to "undo" the "look" of the .look file as well because everything is being processed in 32-bit float, so the .look metadata never clips any data, even if on the screen something appears white or black, or super-saurated . . . if there's there's data underneath because it's not clipped, you have access to it from the host application color-correction toolset.

For the doubters, I'll make your eyes pop out at NAB with some cool stuff in AE surrounding this workflow :)
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Old March 18th, 2007, 07:48 PM   #24
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I'm really looking foreward to side-by side comparisons of SI2k and Red.

The price comparison is only one and the one of least interest. Compared to anything else - these two cameras compete in the same ballpark.

Conceptually, both cameras are of the same origin.

The workflow and resulting images are of much more concern.

I've seen some really nice SI grabs.
I really like the little I've seen from Red, but even though I'm a Red "early adopter", I have no problem admitting that what I've seen from SI is of much bigger diversity and thus more impressing.
... as of now.

I sorta have a hard time understanding the two competitors fanbase need to bash eachother. Really!

They are both paving the way for new workflows and new ways to build cameras. Both base their workflow on wavelet compression.
Both are saving a lot by pushing major costs down the line - from internal processing to the customers computers - which is mostly good, as that is an easily upgradeable part in the setup.

As of now I haven't seen ANY remarks from Red as to how much time you'll spend "developing" the raw data, or if it will in all cases be a needed step.

It will be a major issue, though.

So far SI is a little behind schedule with the 2k, so if both start delivering this spring/summer, they lose some of the advantage they initially had - given that Red won't have to push their deliverydates further.

So basically

These are exciting times!

Good luck to both!

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Old March 19th, 2007, 12:46 PM   #25
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Yes, I'm looking forward to a Red/SI 2K comparison... Now that Red has announced their prices, it would be nice to have a transparent price for SI2K, and a delivery date. The concern is this Cineform licence : it would have been nicer to be able to use the camera without having to buy a licence. For the price of the camera, I mean... By the way, what will be the minimum price to shoot with SI2K ? I know there are previous posts on the subject, but they're old now !

Thanks,

Kristin
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Old March 19th, 2007, 01:00 PM   #26
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So far SI is a little behind schedule with the 2k, so if both start delivering this spring/summer, they lose some of the advantage they initially had - given that Red won't have to push their deliverydates further.
I think it may all come down to this point in the battle for marketshare and mindshare...

As far as the CineForm license goes...this is to Kristin...what other format would you write your file to? You would need to carry a far larger computer than a laptop to store uncompressed (more than replacing any cost reduction from removing the CineForm software) and I don't know of another codec (available for purchase today) that has the combo of image quality and speed, running on a generic, generally available computer CPU that CineForm does...

(Yes, I work with CineForm, and yes, I suppose I'll admit a little bias...but I've looked at a lot of codecs. Canopus HQ has the image quality, but is proprietary, I haven't looked hard enough at Sheer yet, but I'm doing that now...I don't have any experience with encode speed)

...at this point, its a matter of what codec has the most advantageous combination of speed/quality/and file size.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 02:25 PM   #27
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So far SI is a little behind schedule with the 2k, so if both start delivering this spring/summer
BTW, before there's the industry-wide consensus that we've "slipped" in scheduling because of something going horribly wrong, I would like to address the fact that we do have working systems in the field being used by beta-testers on real-world projects who are allowing us to hone the system and make it a much better end-product than it would have been should we have shipped it last fall when we were originally "scheduled".

A headstart for mindshare and marketshare means nothing if you're not putting your best foot forward and the product is not the best it can be. So we're taking our time to-do that, using a number of real-world feature film projects, commercials, documentaries, etc. to get the product to true "production-ready" status. It started with Spoon, but it's grown quite a bit since then, with even more productions happening or about to happen as we speak.

I think at NAB you will be very pleased to see the progress we've made since last year with a much more mature and professional product that has been tested to be production-ready to the best of our ability.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:01 PM   #28
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I don't really know if the implication has been that something is going "horribly wrong"...

There are a few of us who have actually used the SI camera, and I do constantly reference this when I compare my perspective on the current status of SI and RED.

...I'm a fan of the SI camera...but I think that the marketing momentum of the RED is undeniable. I appreciate the amount of real-world use the SI camera has, but I would also like to see Silicon Imaging turn up the volume a bit in the marketing area so the world knows.


...my opinion only.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 03:19 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Gunleik Groven View Post
I'm really looking forward to side-by side comparisons of SI2k and Red.
Considering that both the SI-2K and RED One camera projects
began life on the web right here at DV Info Net, we're probably
the best possible web site to host such a comparison.

The SI-2K concept grew primarily out of this DV Info Net thread,
once Steve Nordhauser from Silicon Imaging became directly
involved with the discussion in May 2004:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....0&postcount=62

The RED One concept began its journey on the Internet
when Frederic Haubrich asked me to post this question
on behalf of Jim Jannard back in December 2004:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=35791

It should be a fairly simple process to arrange to have both
cameras in the same place at the same time for side by side
testing, once the production models have started to ship.
We've done this before with multiple cameras, so we'll
definitely keep this idea in mind.
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Old March 19th, 2007, 09:41 PM   #30
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Chris,
as attractive an idea as that sounds I suspect it's a little bit more complex, neither of those are just cameras in the traditional sense, they're complete systems. Both are offering significant differences in the production chain from when the light hits the sensor until the final grade is done.
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