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Old March 6th, 2014, 07:55 PM   #421
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@Dave...

I''ll admittedly go way out on a limb here and throw in a bunch if speculations on my part. (at the risk of looking like a bigger bone-head than I already do!..lol)

I "think" the AX100 and the RX10 share the same sensor.
I "think" The AX100 and the RX10 share the same Boinz-X processor.
I "think" The AX100 and the RX10 scan the same number of pixels (100%) on each read cycle for 16x9 cropped video.

I "think" that the RX10's scale-down job is actually MORE difficult than the AX100's job. The RX10 takes the same amount of pixels and carefully reduces them to a very sharp 2 megapixel HD image. The AX100 takes those same pixels and reduces them only to a 8 Megapixel 4K image. BUT!,...the RX10 needs to read those pixels/data 60 times a second. The AX100 as we all well know, only needs to do HALF that data rate per second.

I "think" the AX100's skew and rolling shutter is not an accident. I believe it's deliberate and necessary. Reducing it would actually be a BAD thing for Sony's long term 4K camera plans and future fleet. Between NAB next month and IBC at the end of the year, I would "guess" that Sony will release 3 or 4 more expensive and higher class 4K cameras.

If the AX100 does "not" have this rolling shutter skew, that would make it tougher on these 3 or 4 future higher models. The AX100 must fit into a 1-3 year 4K model roll out plan and sit carefully in a specific roll.

Remember, the AX100 and it's possible future sister "pro" model are going to cause DIRECT COMPETITION to existing HD cameras today as well.

Sony must carefully walk a marketing "tight rope" during this HD to 4K transition. There are many Sony cameras competing against each other for many different reasons. And yes, AX100 rolling shutter will be one of those carefully planned reasons.

I "think" it's no accident.
I "think" Sony knows about it very well and has tested it extensively. (along with the seemingly low 60Mbp/s data rate)
I "think" Sony is very happy to have it there and they are glad we noticed it. (rolling shutter skew)

I "know" I'll be buying an AX100 and I "know" I'll be happy with it because of all the other cool things it offers. ;-)

CT

(unless the "pro" sister model has an XLR handle...then I "think" I'll get that one instead.)
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Old March 6th, 2014, 09:17 PM   #422
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cliff, can you give me a time code where you saw the rolling shutter issue prior to the shooter's seizure at the end? I may be wrong in the assumption that you saw it prior to his 'test'.

In the 3 videos I've seen thus far, I've only seen it in the wildness at the end of the video in discussion where it very obvious. Perhaps I'm just not sensitive to this or my shooting style makes me confident it won't be a factor?
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Old March 6th, 2014, 10:10 PM   #423
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Cliff, can you give me a time code where you saw the rolling shutter issue prior to the shooter's seizure at the end? I may be wrong in the assumption that you saw it prior to his 'test'.

In the 3 videos I've seen thus far, I've only seen it in the wildness at the end of the video in discussion where it very obvious. Perhaps I'm just not sensitive to this or my shooting style makes me confident it won't be a factor?
I was thinking the same, I've watched the 4K and downloaded versions over a dozen times, haven't seen the phenomenon he described until the end torture test.

I can definitely see a shaky hand, but the user admitted to and apologized for it saying he had a cold. I don't think the OIS was enabled either, my take.

Shaky hand =/= jello effect.

Looking at the cat around the 3:22 mark, that's just shaky cam footage, zero jello. I've actually never seen that effect unless the camera was panned too fast and that isn't happening in any of the footage until the end again. Meh.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:37 AM   #424
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
@ Anthony
I know you want to argue that somehow the manufacturers are playing some game and ripping "us" off, but EVERY camera has compromises, EVERY technology has limits, and EVERY company, .
the stills marketing had to stop with those tricks after canon got caught (by us) with the pants down intentionally limiting the 300D to make the 10D look good? After that they all stopped. Now all the still cameras shoot the same pictures , and the more expensive ones sport more added features (hard stuff, like a professional faster shutter, heavier body, stabilization etc. NOT software stuff, and the sensors are all pretty much the same, with the same processing) the Nikon D700 takes the same pictures of a D3 , canon 5DII and 1DsIII , canon 5D and 1Ds , even Sony/Minolta: same pictures to all the models.
siding with the marketing guys would be like the husband making sure that the wife's lover is satisfied (with her). something like that. If we are not vigilant they'll start selling cameras with the sensor as an optional (ah.. if ONLY they could do that!)
can't you see that in the video prosumer marketing they position the models with the cheaper ones always missing something important and always software (firmware) RELATED? and the model carrying the important stuff will cost thousands more, not just peanuts. only with video!. until we wake-up and do what the stills friends did. (don't worry: I'm sure that when the laughable D300 firmware blockings was revealed there was somebody siding with the manufacturer.. so you are not alone)
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Old March 7th, 2014, 06:50 AM   #425
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

^ So let me get this straight, you're asking us not to buy this $2,000, relatively tiny camcorder, that produces these excellent 4K videos because you think Sony has somehow, through its software, locked out 60p?

Now the omission of 60p couldn't possibly be due to the fact that the necessary processing power for 4K @60p is either a) too expensive to meet the price point of $2,000 at this point b) produces too much heat for this small body to handle at this stage of development without fans (ask Panasonic about how many responded to the inclusion of fans to deal with heat in their small 1080 60p camcorders) or c) to keep the cheaper SDXC cards in play, Sony decided to go with 30p as the data requirements for 60p @4K would have been so much greater, that a different, larger, more expensive media would have been necessary.

Conspiracy theorists will always point the finger at the manufacturers. Many of these same people initially claimed a) the AX100 Sony demo was never really shot by the camera, but rather by a larger, more expensive 4K cam...it was just too good or b) the material was carefully chosen by Sony because with anything else, you'd see how bad the camera really is.

I continue to believe, based on the actual videos, that this is an amazing camera at this price point. Unprecedented in fact.

But please, don't imply that those of us who choose to buy this camera are 'stupid'. That's both insulting and uncalled for, particularly with the weak, rather poorly thought out 'evidence' you propose.

BTW, using your logic, I can only assume Panasonic is also involved in this same conspiracy with their GH4, that's also limited to 30p. ;)
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Old March 7th, 2014, 09:53 AM   #426
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

These new cameras remind me of the first time I looked through the viewfinder of a VX1000 back in the middle nineties: "This can't be what I'm getting. It's WAY too good".

But I was wrong. I was getting just what the viewfinder said.

My next thought was: "Sony's shooting themselves in the foot"

I was wrong again. They brought out the PD-150 and it was even better.

Sony's smarter than us.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 02:14 PM   #427
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Anthony Lelli View Post
the stills marketing had to stop with those tricks after canon got caught (by us) with the pants down intentionally limiting the 300D to make the 10D look good? After that they all stopped. Now all the still cameras shoot the same pictures , and the more expensive ones sport more added features (hard stuff, like a professional faster shutter, heavier body, stabilization etc. NOT software stuff, and the sensors are all pretty much the same, with the same processing) the Nikon D700 takes the same pictures of a D3 , canon 5DII and 1DsIII , canon 5D and 1Ds , even Sony/Minolta: same pictures to all the models.
siding with the marketing guys would be like the husband making sure that the wife's lover is satisfied (with her). something like that. If we are not vigilant they'll start selling cameras with the sensor as an optional (ah.. if ONLY they could do that!)
can't you see that in the video prosumer marketing they position the models with the cheaper ones always missing something important and always software (firmware) RELATED? and the model carrying the important stuff will cost thousands more, not just peanuts. only with video!. until we wake-up and do what the stills friends did. (don't worry: I'm sure that when the laughable D300 firmware blockings was revealed there was somebody siding with the manufacturer.. so you are not alone)
Anthony, I hope at least some of your "fervor" is due to language barriers you've mentioned previously... the members here at DVi are NOT "stupid", by any means... and we ARE critical when appropriate, note... WHEN APPROPRIATE. While we certainly enjoy "speculation" and analysis (and frustration with "features" from time to time), we generally do it tinfoil free.

YOU cite an "incident" involving a camera released by Nikon in 2007, discontinued in 2009, and tar and feather all the "players" in an entire industry...

YOU state a list of VERY different cameras, followed by the nonsensical statement that " same pictures to all the models" - again, I hope this is a lack of familiarity with the English language, as it's complete silliness - I have owned and currently own multiple models from Sony, and they most certainly have differences between models, and definitely model years... definitely noticeable differences in picture quality, features, capabilities, and so on. And certainly differences between BRANDS, even if they do sometimes "share" technologies and "parts"!

You're suggesting that there's some grand conspiracy to trickle out or deliberately disable features in a market that is drying up faster than a shallow puddle?? This is a market niche that needs to innovate aggressively if it is to survive AT ALL, by general accounts of sales. There comes a point where product has to be brought to market and SOLD, warts and all. And it better be something GOOD that people will buy! By some estimations, some of these companies may not be around if they don't figure out how to adapt to market changes...

Sony has broken new ground with the RX series (and they are continuing to try to add features). Am I "mad" that the RX100 had a "regular" sensor and no articulating screen?? Umm... I suppose I COULD be, but I shot a LOT of excellent pictures and video with that camera, that I suppose was "overpriced", but I got one at a decent price, and I'll get decent value out of it when I get around to selling it. Am I "mad" that they added the articulating screen and "R" backlit sensor (among other features, those two "matter" to me) with the RX100M2 version? Hmmm, I suppose I COULD be, but again, I'm getting plenty of USE out of it, I feel it's a bit "better" for my uses, and if there's a M3 that has compelling upgrades... I'll probably upgrade and pass the carefully used M2 along to someone else, who will get lots of good pictures and video from it!

My point is that you're "argument" doesn't even make sense - technology is constantly CHANGING, not the "same", there's no conspiracy, features may be added or removed for reasons we may not understand, but many times there are reasons that are not conspiratorial in nature, they are just engineering, marketing, accounting, customer support, etc. decisions... that's business.

Sony will likely sell far more sensors for the cell/tablet market than they will the entire 1" sensor market. I'm glad they will, and I'm fine with them innovating as fast as possible in that market, so they survive to produce things like the RX series!

Sorry if my tone is a little rough, but I've tried to figure out what you're trying to say, and no matter how many times you've repeated it, it doesn't make sense... and if you call the people here who want to discuss things realistically, "stupid"... well, that's just stupid <wink>. Hope you take this in the way intended, and get busy shooting whatever camera you've got, that's what it's all about after all!
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Old March 7th, 2014, 02:45 PM   #428
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Dave Blackhurst,
yeah. in video there is always something important missing , making us spend thousands more for just some little software adjustment.
and it wasn't Nikon , that laughable "incident" was well established and it was Canon . After that they all never did it again.
you can read the word "canon", right. it was written pretty clear in my post.
I don't remember Nikon doing it. The only thing that Nikon did was limiting the WB value so photoshop had to guess. but that was a war between Nikon and adobe (they used to sell "upgrades" at full price when a new camera was out. Nikon sent a message that they could make the life at adobe's much more complicated if they started hiding the software in their cameras.
As you can see the temptation of limiting a product via "software" was well established before the Canon's mistake.
in video they are still doing it, with us. Big time.And you defending them makes me laugh : they do it against you LOL Only because we are not as smart as the still friends doesn't mean that we have to take it and be happy. Look at the GH2. it was hacked in no time , but it was thanks to the still guys, not us.
let me put it this way: they do it, then stay at the window to see if we buy it. When they see somebody like you buying everything and even addressing all upset the few who move doubts then they know that one more trick made it to the bank.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:05 PM   #429
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Dave, unfortunately this is not a language barrier issue. That's pretty clear now.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:14 PM   #430
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
@Dave...

I''ll admittedly go way out on a limb here and throw in a bunch if speculations on my part. (at the risk of looking like a bigger bone-head than I already do!..lol)

I "think" the AX100 and the RX10 share the same sensor.
I "think" The AX100 and the RX10 share the same Boinz-X processor.
I "think" The AX100 and the RX10 scan the same number of pixels (100%) on each read cycle for 16x9 cropped video.

I "think" that the RX10's scale-down job is actually MORE difficult than the AX100's job. The RX10 takes the same amount of pixels and carefully reduces them to a very sharp 2 megapixel HD image. The AX100 takes those same pixels and reduces them only to a 8 Megapixel 4K image. BUT!,...the RX10 needs to read those pixels/data 60 times a second. The AX100 as we all well know, only needs to do HALF that data rate per second.

I "think" the AX100's skew and rolling shutter is not an accident. I believe it's deliberate and necessary. Reducing it would actually be a BAD thing for Sony's long term 4K camera plans and future fleet. Between NAB next month and IBC at the end of the year, I would "guess" that Sony will release 3 or 4 more expensive and higher class 4K cameras.

If the AX100 does "not" have this rolling shutter skew, that would make it tougher on these 3 or 4 future higher models. The AX100 must fit into a 1-3 year 4K model roll out plan and sit carefully in a specific roll.

Remember, the AX100 and it's possible future sister "pro" model are going to cause DIRECT COMPETITION to existing HD cameras today as well.

Sony must carefully walk a marketing "tight rope" during this HD to 4K transition. There are many Sony cameras competing against each other for many different reasons. And yes, AX100 rolling shutter will be one of those carefully planned reasons.

I "think" it's no accident.
I "think" Sony knows about it very well and has tested it extensively. (along with the seemingly low 60Mbp/s data rate)
I "think" Sony is very happy to have it there and they are glad we noticed it. (rolling shutter skew)

I "know" I'll be buying an AX100 and I "know" I'll be happy with it because of all the other cool things it offers. ;-)

CT

(unless the "pro" sister model has an XLR handle...then I "think" I'll get that one instead.)

@ Cliff -

I suspect it depends a bit on where in the processing chain the data is "massaged" - I'm pretty sure you're right about the same sensor and processor - BUT... just as one can program a computer differently, there may well be some options in HOW those components are utilized. I've seen Sony "groups" use what is supposed to be the exact same sensor and processor "generation" in different cameras with very different results... seems odd, but having seen it firsthand, I can only suspect that there are "teams" of engineers that work in parallel within the company - so you can see a "TX" camera that is different from an "HX", despite shared "guts".

IOW, I'm not sure about exactly how the sensor is being "read", and suspect that that may be the "cause" of the 30p and skew (and that's the reason I have to withhold anything other than speculation until a cam is in hand).

What we DO know, is that the RX10 is tossing around 1's and 0's at a bitrate of 28Mbps at 1080/60p, the AX100 is basically doubling that (60Mbps) for 1080/60p and 4k/30p, so there's "something" different under the hood! Perhaps there is higher performance from "some" of the parts being produced - not unheard of with "processors"?

I'd also suspect that within the year, 4K will become a "necessary" feature, I read there are several just announced cell phones that will have it, there is speculation that there will be a new Alpha series with 4K shortly... it's coming, and relatively fast! That's where the AX100 is a good "toe in the water" for what is coming towards us rapidly, even if there are "issues", as there always will be with being on the bleeding edge!
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:32 PM   #431
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Dave, unfortunately this is not a language barrier issue. That's pretty clear now.
LOL!

Too funny, always one. :-)
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Old March 7th, 2014, 03:39 PM   #432
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Dave, unfortunately this is not a language barrier issue. That's pretty clear now.
yup...

@ Anthony -

So it's a 10+ year old "incident" - my mistake to google D300 (oops, you MISTYPED SOMETHING!) and now (upon "regoogling") find there were TWO "D300's"... or actually a 300D... whatever, you still stated " same pictures to all the models", an absolutely ABSURD statement... and attribute this nonsensical and empirically unsupportable result to this now ancient "incident"??

My understanding is Nikon has relatively recently used sensors from Sony, with features Sony doesn't enable... hmmm... whatever.


No one forces you to buy anything, at least not camera gear. If you feel cameras are "missing" something, don't buy 'em, use whatever old thing you've got, "protesting" in your tinfoil hat to your heart's content...

I usually buy good used "stuff" from people who don't understand how to use it (or think it's missing something, and maybe it is, for them) at good discounts, and can stay in reasonably current "crippled" <wink> gear quite nicely... no complaints...

Yes, a smart manufacturer that wants to be around for the long term watches to see what sells, and tailors products to what they think will sell, otherwise they will be OUT of business shortly! Sony broke ground with the RX100, it "worked", they released a Mark2... it still works, and out of nowhere, the RX10, and it works... the AX100 probably will do pretty well in a market niche that frankly is on life support at best!

Look around at the sales #s for cameras, by segment and in general - manufacturers that are struggling to survive in rapidly shrinking markets don't have time to worry too much about playing games - survival will depend on releasing products that SELL, because they offer something that justifies the purchase for enough buyers to pay back the R&D and production costs and a profit! That's increasingly hard to do with cell phones and tablets dominating consumer imaging... there may be at best a limited "enthusiast" niche within 2-3 years, and "prosumer" cameras may well ride into the sunset with the P&S... I'm OK with helping see the market segment survive, as shooting stuff with a cell phone sorta stinks! At least for now...


Insulting the rest of us who are here to engage in civil discussion is one way to get banned, just FYI.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 05:30 PM   #433
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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LOL!

Too funny, always one. :-)
Yup, no matter what forum you go to, always one. The question that confounds the human race is, why? :)

Last edited by Ken Ross; March 7th, 2014 at 09:24 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 01:39 AM   #434
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

The Sony FDR-AX100 not having 4K at 60p is a HEAT issue, pure and simple.

I have the FDR-AX1, and if you take the time to look in the front air vent, there is a HUGE heat sink visible in there. One the back right corner, there is a fan & vent. Here in tropical Central America, at room temperature (say 85F / 29C degrees), the FDR-AX1 exhaust air temperature is burning hot. And I mean really, really hot, not just sort of warm.

I recently had the FDR-AX1 way down at the bottom of South America, and it really loved the 5-7C degree (41 - 44F) temperature. Battery lasted longer, and the exhaust air was just barely warm.

People need to STOP making this no 4K 60p in the FDR-AX1 a "Sony is ripping us off" issue... it's purely an engineering issue. Give it a couple years, and they will have a faster, more efficient processor, and you will have your 4K @ 60p in a tiny, handy-cam package.

Wait for it.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 02:31 AM   #435
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

The AX100 is a different sensor and processor, which may or may not have heat issues - I haven't stress tested the RX10 for overheat, but so far no reports, knock on wood.

Then again, as I pointed out above, even if the sensor and processor are the same, they are being pushed a bit harder with higher bitrates.

I think there's only been one person suggesting "Sony is ripping us off", the rest of us just "wish" that it had 60p, but are planning to, or seriously considering, buying it anyway <wink>!

There are several possible issues, heat may have been one, I'm guessing the lack of affordable "consumer" memory that could handle 60p was another big one - a camera that would cost huge amounts to buy "proper" memory for, would probably prompt many CS "nightmare" calls from frustrated consumers trying to use "regular" memory, As it is, I suspect many people will put lower grade memory into their shiny new toy, and it won't "work"!

Of course, as you point out, 2-5 years from now, we will have 256-500G memory cards with insane high transfer bitrates, and this will be "history"! It'll come, soon enough, but we're all impatient, can't even wait a few more days for this horribly flawed, "crippled" camera to be available! Silly us <wink>.
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