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Old March 25th, 2014, 10:22 AM   #631
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Anyone watching in this manner will be very hard pressed to see the difference between this and true 60p. For AX100 owners I can't stress this enough. The difference between using this feature and not with fast motion, is huge. To me, it so minimizes the issue of 30p while watching on a display that has this feature, as to render the issue almost moot.)
In the ntsc world our flat-panel tv's always have been able to present 60p. 60i fields are paired to 60p. 24p has 3:2 pulldown added to make 60p. (And some hdtv's allow 60p input.) So we have no choice -- if 30p comes in, we see 60p because each frame is repeated twice.

An optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames. So are you talking about turning ON the 120/240 mode?

Moreover, doesn't the AX100 auto-sense the hdtv and automatically output 60p or 60PsF (which looks to the tv like 60i). I can't see Sony ever outputting 30p.

The question of 24p is more complicated. Some hdtvs do accept 24p -- and they could signal the AX100 to output 24p. In this case it will be the hdtv that adds pulldown. But, if the hdtv can accept 60p then the camera can add the pulldown. If neither are accepted -- then pulldown is added to make 60PsF which looks to the tv like 60i. Again, an optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames.

I would never use this with 24fps as it removes film judder. In fact, I probably wouldn't use it with 30p for the same reason.

With all the RAW Cinema cameras being used at 24p, I figure why not go with the film look. Plus, 24p goes perfectly to BD, it will obviously be supported on BR2, and it makes more efficient use of the bandwidth allowed by 4K youtube. Moreover, 24p easily becomes 25p. It really is a world standard.

Plus, following the camera/subject motion rules for 24p provides the added benefit of reducing/eliminating RS.

I LOVE 60p, but it just isn't going to be adopted with 4K being a much bigger buzz word. (Youtube will not transmit 1080p60.) And, acceptable 60p can be generated -- as you say -- by the hdtv. Maybe with 8K.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 12:18 PM   #632
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
In the ntsc world our flat-panel tv's always have been able to present 60p. 60i fields are paired to 60p. 24p has 3:2 pulldown added to make 60p. (And some hdtv's allow 60p input.) So we have no choice -- if 30p comes in, we see 60p because each frame is repeated twice.

An optional feature ups the rate from 60p to 120 or 240 -- now almost always with the creation of intermediate frames. So are you talking about turning ON the 120/240 mode?
Yes Steve, you are correct, I'm actually speaking of the rate doubler that ups it to 120 or, in some cases, to 240. It's this increase that smooths out the video and makes it look as if it were recorded in 60p. But as I said, this is the same increase that causes the SOE (soap opera effect) when watching film. But I see no ill-effects with the 30p video from the AX100. I also saw this same benefit with ordinary cellphone video that is also generally 30p.

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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
Moreover, doesn't the AX100 auto-sense the hdtv and automatically output 60p or 60PsF (which looks to the tv like 60i). I can't see Sony ever outputting 30p.
I don't think the output of the AX100 is looked at as 60i by the display. When I feed the camera output to my Samsung F8500, it sees it as 60p. If the display saw the output from the camera as 60i, it would report that, as it does from my Directv STB. When I switch to my STB, you can see the TV reporting back the signal as '60i'. With the Sony, it reports 60p.

I can honestly see no downside and only benefit in enabling the doubler and minimizing/eliminating the stutter of fast motion. I don't see this as the same thing as removing judder in film. If you're watching film you generally want the look of film. To introduce the soap opera effect by using a doubler merely adds the look of video and you no longer have the look of film. But with the AX100 or most other video cameras, I'm trying to retain the look of smooth video, not film. 30p will never look like film IMO.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #633
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Looking at the "Hello Kitty" video, it looks pretty good, a bit of motion blur, but not objectionable, actually looked "good" considering, smooth enough and no "stutter" or jerkiness. Perhaps the higher resolution "covers" for the lower frame rate?

RS might be a rare issue, but not a problem for most things, and it's not like other cameras won't have the same issue. Careful panning and not shooting moving trains at close distances will probably do the trick!


So Ken is the AX100 THAT much sharper than the RX10? I know the RX10 &100M2 are quite sharp "HD" and the AX100 is obviously sharp displaying as 1080 (I don't have any 4K screens!). I suppose the RX10M2 will bring 4K to that model... It's scary to see such a big jump in video quality in such a short time! I guess with cell phone sensors and software chomping at the camera market (actually swallowing many parts whole!), the manufacturers have to really up their game to have anything saleable and appealing to the "consumer"!

I suppose it's time to spec a 4K capable computer system! Anyone have one of those "cheap" Seiki 39" 4K TV's as a "monitor"?

Now to go stand outside a studio and try to catch a "throwaway" <wink>!
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Old March 25th, 2014, 01:00 PM   #634
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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This camera is so impressive. Here's some 4k footage in the first few hours of filming with it it.
Glen, congrats, you really did such a nice job with that video. Very impressive.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 01:07 PM   #635
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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So Ken is the AX100 THAT much sharper than the RX10?
Yeah Dave, it really is. I remember being so impressed with the detail from the RX10 and now, in comparison, it looks more 'ho hum'. Now remember, I'm talking about viewing both on a 1080p display and I'm talking about starting with a 4K file from the AX100 and down sampling to 1080p. Using that criteria, the AX100's down sampled 1080p is significantly sharper. If you initiate a recording in 1080p on the AX100, it's not nearly as impressive as it is when it originates in 4K.

Of course you have the added benefit of now having an archived file in 4K even if your immediate intention is to only use it in HD.

This actually didn't come as a major surprise to me having viewed a number of AX100 videos prior to my purchase and down sampled to 1080p. I could tell that look was not the look I got from my RX10.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 01:14 PM   #636
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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But with the AX100 or most other video cameras, I'm trying to retain the look of smooth video, not film. 30p will never look like film IMO.
Last year I reviewed JVC's 4k that shot at 60p. Then I realized it couldn't go to BR or to Youtube. (Unless i scaled it to 720p.). To get 60p on Vimeo I would have to pay them -- which I wasn't willing to do.

I was at a dead end. At that point I became involved with the Digital Bolex which seemed cheap compared to the Sony AX1. I've now gotten so used to 24fps it doesn't bother me anymore.

<< Technically, all these RAW cameras have zero edge-enhancement so edges are soft and it is the hard edges our eyes lock onto to create judder. In theory, 4k video should need edge enhancement because there is so much detail. Thus, judder should be low. >>

Of course, now we have the d16 at $3300, the BMPC4K at $3000, the AX100 at $2000, and the BMPCC at $1000. And, the under $1000 Chinon. And, I haven't been to NAB yet. There are so many great choices!

There may be a trick IF I WANT THE FILM LOOK OF A BMPC4K. Use FilmConvert to add a bit of grain which MAY soften the AX100 edges a bit -- as well as shifting color to one of the Kodak Vision 3 stocks.

This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)
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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:00 PM   #637
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)
YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.
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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:27 PM   #638
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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This may prove to be an interesting experiment because Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)
Since 4K is for my own personal pleasure, I have no concern about what's 'in' or 'out'. Never bothered me before and it surely won't now.

My personal goal is to always get as close to the look of 'reality' as possible, to recreate as precisely as I can, what I saw. Cinema doesn't do that. In fact it moves you in a totally different direction. If I were an Indie film maker, it would be a different story, but I'm not. "Dreamy look"? Not for me. "Stylized look"? Not for me.

Frankly, the overwhelming majority of what I see from guys that shoot RAW, look like utter garbage. Properly grading and getting the colors 'right' with RAW is a very difficult process. That's why the Hollywood guys get paid the big bucks. A random look almost anywhere on the web with the average guy showing off his RAW edits, show how painfully distant those skills are from the average bear. But of course the average guy that shoots RAW IS looking for a 'stylized look'. In fact, when some guys show a RAW video that's been graded and produced to look more like 'reality', his results generally get met with poor reviews from other RAW shooters. Such is life. Those rare RAW shooters are producing the kind of video I like.

For me, and the look of reality, the AX100 gets me closer to my goal than any camera I've used before and it does it with a minimum of fuss.

Whatever floats one's boat. :)
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Old March 25th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #639
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich View Post
YAWN. Seriously Steve? In this day and age we are STILL pronouncing things "dead" or "out"?

I'll need to convey that tidbit to my clients as I prepare for my best ever (based on current receivables and projected work) year of video production.
A big "Amen" to that Shaun!!!!!
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:28 PM   #640
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
Cinema is in and Video is out. Look at the content of the only video magazine left. :)
...he said with his tongue firmly stuck in his cheek.

Very funny Steve, but you should have placed a bunch of smilies after that comment lest people take you seriously. But just to go with that notion for a bit let me ask which cinema look is in? The horrible juddery 24p mess of unwatchable rubbish produced by many if not most indie film maker wannabe's or the look of, for instance, master cinematographer Christopher Doyle as demonstrated in the classic 'In the Mood for Love'. And there are thousands more somewhere in between.

Here's a suggestion: do a simple survey as follows. Next time you are at a function, partly-like with people happy, chatty, freely opinionated and loose, just normal people and absolutely no film or film related people present (which of course means billions of sane people on the planet totally disinterested in our favorite subject) and ask them out of the blue if they prefer 24p, 30p or 60p. If that mostly draws blank stares don't be surprised nor dismayed and then ask if they can name any production they recently viewed that was convincingly cinematic, filmic (if you can bring yourself to say that non-word) and conversely if they can name any production they recently watched that decidedly was not.

Other than that infinitesimal cohort that is directly involved one way or another (including us or course) people just don't give a toss.

'Video is out'! Very funny:-)
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Old March 25th, 2014, 03:53 PM   #641
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Ken if I was just shooting for myself then 30P may suffice since my Sony 240Hz interpolating display does a really nice job of creating the extra frames for smooth motion. However to edit and make a DVD or Bluray I need either 60i source or 60P source to get that smooth look for people who do not have a nice display. I can clearly see the difference and it bothers me (not as much as 24P ) and I even shoot at 60P with my GoPro and Sony AS30V !!

People have low expectation watching YouTube different from their TV or going to the cinema. Expectations are totally different. For low motion video the FDR-AX100 looks beautiful and just like any camera shooting at a low frame rate it will not provide a smooth motion for faster movement like dancers swinging their arms etc especially if a low shutter is used and/or closeup. In which case the interpolating TV will have more difficulty creating a nice smooth high definition image hampered by the motion blur.

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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:29 PM   #642
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I hear ya Ron. As you know, part of the equation with any piece of equipment, is knowing its limitations and how to work around them. :)

I suspect that's what most wives say about their husbands. ;)
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Old March 25th, 2014, 04:44 PM   #643
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

And husbands say about their wives.

Ron, let me butt in here and offer a few comments. I always pay attention to your posts and it was your thoughtful words that got me going with 60p some time ago. I don't disagree that 60p is 'technically' better than 30p if there is lots of motion involved such as the dancers video you posted. I understand that it bothers you but you are producing the stuff and consequently are very critical, I would suggest much more critical than the average viewer.

Regarding the expectations of people in respect to YouTube, TV and Cinema I caution you on drawing such generalizations as the water gets deep very quickly. To say that 'expectations are totally different' is indeed a mouthful and questionable, and of course I take it you are referring to the general viewing public. To give an instance of the shifts unfolding many people, two of my brothers included, now watch YouTube video on their TV via Ethernet cable from the modem to the TV. I would suggest that your exquisite fine eye is lost on such people and my data-free observation is that content is still King and the faint difference between 60p and 30p even in such scenes is of no practical significance to most folks.

Yes, presumably (I have no data) movie goers do expect pretty pictures but let's not forget that they have been watching 24p since the beginning and to my old eyes 30p looks much better than 24p especially if there is much motion involved.

Having said that I'm not for one moment suggesting that you lower your production standards especially if your customer base expectations are at risk but for enthusiasts whose audience is family and friends, and Vimeo freaks perhaps, then I have difficulty believing that the AX100 will draw howls of indignation because of the 30p frame rate. I would go so far as to suggest that folks should not be dissuaded by the 30p limitation even if shooting motion such as the dancers you referenced.

Now if only B&H would get the AX100 in stock I would place an order.

Cheers...
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Old March 25th, 2014, 05:06 PM   #644
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Totally agree John. We too sometimes watch YouTube on our TV via the Sony Bluray player wireless interface to the internet and then the interpolating 240Hz TV. Does not look so bad !!! People shoot video on their cell phone and then show them to others on their cell phones too. I communicate with Skype to my wife when I am off on a ski trip. All totally different quality levels and expectation in my mind. If I go to the cinema it better look better than my cell phone. The skill level of camera work is also greater so judder inherent with 24P is less obvious and faster motion is often shot at high speed and slowed down. I do not think that with this range of displays the average user will be able to verbalize the differences they see and will not notice 30P as you say especially that everything they see on YouTube is 30P anyway !!!.

For the average user I think it will depend on what they are shooting and viewing the output on. If they do not have a 4K TV then they will be watching a 1920x1080 output from the FDR-AX100. Will they actually see a difference from shooting at 1920x1080 XAVC-S that could be at 60P for smoother motion ? Does the FDR-AX100 actually do frame interpolation for the HDMI output to 1920x1080. Would be interesting to know as Sony certainly has the technology.

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Old March 25th, 2014, 06:44 PM   #645
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Just got my AX100 this afternoon. Im sceptical of 4k at only 60Mbp/s. Time to torture test the motion handling and low light resolution in the shodows. Lets see if can hold up without blocking and mudding up the blacks.

Oh...just to clarify. The AX100 WILL output clean 1080 over HDMI while recording 4k! So, yes, you CAN monitor and record 1080 and still shoot 4K simultaneously! I like my live scopes. (Thanks Sony!)

CT
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