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Old April 2nd, 2014, 04:32 PM   #811
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

jeez, looks like i've got catching up to do. just got back from a 2 week getaway and the ax100 just had to arrive back at home smack in the middle of it
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 04:53 PM   #812
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

If somebody "wants" to hate a camera...it's not a very hard thing to do.

Hell, I could hate a Sony F55 and tell you at least 20 reasons why it sucks. If I put my mind to it, I could certainly do the same with any BlackMagic camera or even any RED camera....if I really have that idea in my head.

People's expectations can often vary widely. But again, if you dont like the numbers on paper before you ever see a camera. (I.e....60Mbp/s 29.97p sucks) than its pretty much a self fulfilling proficy once you get it in your doubting little hands.

As far a resolution goes...the AX1 is damn sharp!

From what I have read, the BlackMagic 4K camera only has an 8 megapixel sensor. It does not use the 20% oversample rule before bayer removal. So thats 2 million red, 2 million blue and 4 million green pixels. After bayer, you will lose around 20% of that resolution.

I have read the G4 does the same. It reads only an 8 megapixel crop from the middle of the sensor.

We are told that Sony reads a full 16×9 image which is over sampled "before" debayer and uses all those extra pixles during its internal scale down.

This could easily explain why its tack sharp and loaded full of so much detail.

Ok...ill admit it. I got my AX100 expecting that I would probably return it because I didnt think I would be impressed with it. However, after the 3rd day of shooting, I was completly won over by it. It was "not" the camera I thought it would be. It turned out to be much more than I originally expected.

Last edited by Cliff Totten; April 2nd, 2014 at 07:16 PM.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 06:25 PM   #813
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
I have read the G4 does the same. It reads only an 8 megapixel crop from the middle of the sensor.
I had not heard that Cliff. That's a bit disappointing, but does explain why the samples we've seen are not up to the resolution of the AX100. Are you sure about that?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
Ok...ill admit it. I got my AX100 expecting that I would probably return it because I didnt think I would be impressed with it. However, after the 3rd day of shooting, I was completly won over by it. It was "not" the camera I thought it would be. It turned out to be much more than I originally expected.
But that's the difference between having an open mind and being steadfast in criticizing the camera when you've never seen the native output on a large screen HDTV, let alone a large screen UHD TV.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 09:19 PM   #814
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Sitting with AX100 and have made the basic menu choices:

1) Set Exposure = AUTO.

2) AGC LIMIT = OFF or 18dB to 24dB. (I'm concerned it's AGC. The word Auto implies gain can vary up to the limit. In low-light, changes in light could cause fluctuations in gain -- something one does not want.)

3) AE SHIFT = 0.7 (tip: must press P.AE in order to menu item.)

4) What does LO-LUX do? Never documented.

5) Set Picture Effect = OFF.

6) Set Cinematone = ON or OFF.

7) Set SteadyShot = ACTIVE.

8) Set Digital Zoom = OFF.

9) Set Auto Back Light = OFF.

10) What is Smile Sensitivity doing here? :)

11) My screen BUTTONs: Monitor Brightness, Spot Meter, and Audio Rec Level.

12) Audio Level does not control level of plugged in external mic -- which seems like when one would need control the most.

13) Set Zebra = 100. (A warning of clipping as the AX records up to 108%.

14) Set Frame Rate. You must then press NEXT and then OK.

15) Set Camera Data Disp. and Audio Level Display = ON.


I'll try to recreate what I did on Tuesday to get exposure control:

1) For auto-shooting, press P.AE to set everything to Auto -- all As. Press AF/MF as needed.

2) If Shutter = A, press Shutter -- the A goes away -- and dial to 48 (24fps) or 60 (30fps). Camera is now in Shutter Priority mode.

3) If Gain = A, press Gain -- the A goes away -- and dial to the value you want.

4) Press Iris twice -- the A stays.

5) Exposure -- which is controlled only by the aperture -- is automatic with AE Shift honored.

6) Briefly press the Manual button and the A switches to E. Use the Dial to control exposure -- which is controlled only by the aperture -- AE Shift not honored. (I would much prefer the Lens Ring ZOOM option be replaced by the Exposure control as it is far more traditional.)

7) When Focus and/or Exposure are in Automatic mode, before starting shooting -- press AF/MF to Lock focus and/or press the Manual button to lock exposure. This prevents unwanted disturbances in images during a shot. After shot, press AF/MF to Unlock focus and/or press the Manual button to unlock exposure and return to AE.

This works for me. And, this may well be what you guys do on your Sony cameras, I don't know.
I'm not seeing many links to 4K movies -- how many folks have AX100s?
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 10:08 PM   #815
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter siamidis View Post
here i'll help you out with your review. From seeing other websites, what i've gathered is that the correct way to review a sony camera is as follows:
>> I'm paid to write for professional magazines so reviews must be balanced. Interface design, ergonomics, and documentation are valid topics for a review.

3) next go on about how it is impossible to film anything valid unless you have 14 stops of dr, 600mbps raw codec, full manual everything, zero aliasing and moire and only a fool would ever consider a camera that doesn't have all of the above.

4) always be sure to include a rant about no prores support because clearly prores is the only valid codec on the planet.

>> Equally valid is what technology the camera uses. And, at a price are better technologies available. You sound like a fanboy who want's nothing negative to be written.

5) then ignore all positives of the sony camera like being able to share accessories with other sony camera gear, oled viewfinder, good battery life, etc...

>> And now you want positives. Seems you want marketing copy, not an honest review.

6) next ignore all negatives of other competing brands like poor ergonomics, not being able to format memory cards or delete individual files while in the field, shitty battery life, etc...

>> Not relevant for the current review,

7) finally you find the best edge case you can that makes the sony camera look bad and make a video of it so everyone else can link to that one video as the complete summary of the sony camera, because everyone knows that a single edge case of failure for a piece of gear clearly reflects upon how everyone on the planet will use it.

>> What are you talking about. We don't link to videos.

There you go, sony camera review done. At least that's how i gather they are done from reading other websites, your mileage may vary of course.

>> You watch way too many free reviews done by kids. Try reading professional magazines who hire professional reviewers with decades of experience with all brands. Why do you think sony, jvc, pana loan me cameras to be reviewed?
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 10:19 PM   #816
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
I'm not seeing many links to 4K movies -- how many folks have AX100s?
There are tons of them on the internet. Tons.

Here's one that was just posted today. He obviously played with saturation, but that was the look he was after and many found this video great. Feel free to rail away Steve. ;)

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Old April 2nd, 2014, 10:24 PM   #817
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen;18396075)
then ignore all positives of the sony camera like being able to share accessories with other sony camera gear, oled viewfinder, good battery life, etc...

>> And now you want positives. Seems you want marketing copy, not an honest review.
Steve, if you read your posts objectively, you'll see how people can draw this conclusion. It's hard to recall anything positive you said about the camera. However, it's extremely easy to recall the endless negatives you've written.

Frankly some of us are quite surprised by some of your questions. It almost appears as if you haven't handled a Sony in years and years. The camera menus have changed little and the controls are very much the same as they have been in other high end Sonys. In fact, most people feel the controls are laid out quite sensibly.

No, I'm not surprised that people react this way at all. You talk about objectivity, but frankly it seems a bit lacking in all your comments.
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Old April 2nd, 2014, 11:01 PM   #818
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

OK, saw a bit of "stutter" in that track meet video... hope it was 24p or something intentional (I've seen some video I think introduces that look on purpose). But freezing frames, they looked pretty clean, and that opening shot... not sure if it was done live somehow or green screened or what... but "wow"... very 3D feel!
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 12:58 AM   #819
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
... I have read the G4 does the same. It reads only an 8 megapixel crop from the middle of the sensor.
** From where did you read this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Totten View Post
... We are told that Sony reads a full 16×9 image which is over sampled "before" debayer and uses all those extra pixles during its internal scale down.
** Told from who?
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 01:28 AM   #820
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
It's hard to recall anything positive you said about the camera. However, it's extremely easy to recall the endless negatives you've written.

Frankly some of us are quite surprised by some of your questions. It almost appears as if you haven't handled a Sony in years and years.
The first place I start is with the documentation. It's poor. Do you think it's good?

Then I look at control operation. I've owned Sony's from the first Video8 onward. I've never liked their control design and always said so in my reviews which go back to 1993. JVC and Panasonic I feel are much better. But Sony still overall made the best camcorders. So I lived with the controls.

Sony loaned me a prototype of a V1. Do you really think I'm going to remember its controls years later. Once JVC brought out the HD100 and HD10, I've just found them a better fit to my needs. Then I stopped using camcorders entirely.

I wrote a book on the NEX family that covered the VG10, but nothing convinced me to buy a VG10. Same old Sony control issues. The NEX photo cameras were IMO much better. Video DSLRs work like a photographer or filmmaker expects. Now we have the choice of digital cinema cameras that one uses like film cameras -- which is where I started.

In the time since the AX100 was first shown at CES, the market has become a very crowded. The AX100 has to be reviewed in this new context. Our choices are no longer a DV or HDV camcorder from another Japanese company. The real competition for quality are the RAW/ProRes 422HQ (10-bit) camcorders. Resolution simply is not the most important factor. Our criteria for picture quality is now digital cinema because this quality is now in the prosumer price range. IMO once Sony made a 24fps 4K camcorder with a Super16 sized sensor with claims of full manual operation -- they put themselves in the cinema camera business -- even if they call it a Handycam. (Which may be to differentiate itself from something coming at NAB using the same sensor.) I mean who wouldn't want CineAlta-like images at $2000? (Not that the BMCC doesn't have many flaws.)

Moreover, I've posted the low-light tests folks asked for. Strange how these were totally ignored because they were positive. Seems to me folks are hyper defensive about Sony. :) More rolling shutter tests going up tonight. I could see some RS sometimes, but about the same as other CMOS cameras. I don't think this is a problem even at 24p. On the other hand at 4K there is a lot of aliasing around tree leaves and branches. I've seen this same aliasing on the samples posted several months ago. Also, noise is visible at full resolution. Why in bright light there should be noise -- I have no idea.

PS: there are dozens of GH4 samples on-line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...&v=JyB2_COzWsU

http://www.eduardoangel.com/2014/02/...-with-the-gh4/
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; April 3rd, 2014 at 02:20 AM.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:06 AM   #821
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

[QUOTE=Steve Mullen;1839622] Sony loaned me a prototype of a V1. Do you really think I'm going to remember its controls years later.

Steve, this is all a bit of a time waste, you actually wrote a full how to use book on the Sony V1/FX7 and guess what?, they have exactly the same method/logic for manual control for iris/shutter/gain as the AX100! - can I loan you a copy.
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 06:18 AM   #822
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Siamidis View Post
I attached a pic of my AX100 with a FV100 battery, and pulled the viewfinder out to turn the camera on. I don't use the viewfinder with this camera as I use a scorpion handle instead, but I was able to look into the viewfinder without my face bumping into the battery.
I have never used any scorpion handle. Can you tell me what scorpion handle you use precisely? I'm thinking to use AX100 with it. But I need a very light scorpion because I will use it for my trips in the rainforest. Do you think it will be useful really for AX100? ..... Or what do you recommend?
thanks
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 07:50 AM   #823
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
The first place I start is with the documentation. It's poor. Do you think it's good?

Then I look at control operation. I've owned Sony's from the first Video8 onward. I've never liked their control design and always said so in my reviews which go back to 1993. JVC and Panasonic I feel are much better. But Sony still overall made the best camcorders. So I lived with the controls.

Sony loaned me a prototype of a V1. Do you really think I'm going to remember its controls years later. Once JVC brought out the HD100 and HD10, I've just found them a better fit to my needs. Then I stopped using camcorders entirely.

I wrote a book on the NEX family that covered the VG10, but nothing convinced me to buy a VG10. Same old Sony control issues. The NEX photo cameras were IMO much better. Video DSLRs work like a photographer or filmmaker expects. Now we have the choice of digital cinema cameras that one uses like film cameras -- which is where I started.

In the time since the AX100 was first shown at CES, the market has become a very crowded. The AX100 has to be reviewed in this new context. Our choices are no longer a DV or HDV camcorder from another Japanese company. The real competition for quality are the RAW/ProRes 422HQ (10-bit) camcorders. Resolution simply is not the most important factor. Our criteria for picture quality is now digital cinema because this quality is now in the prosumer price range. IMO once Sony made a 24fps 4K camcorder with a Super16 sized sensor with claims of full manual operation -- they put themselves in the cinema camera business -- even if they call it a Handycam. (Which may be to differentiate itself from something coming at NAB using the same sensor.) I mean who wouldn't want CineAlta-like images at $2000? (Not that the BMCC doesn't have many flaws.)

Moreover, I've posted the low-light tests folks asked for. Strange how these were totally ignored because they were positive. Seems to me folks are hyper defensive about Sony. :) More rolling shutter tests going up tonight. I could see some RS sometimes, but about the same as other CMOS cameras. I don't think this is a problem even at 24p. On the other hand at 4K there is a lot of aliasing around tree leaves and branches. I've seen this same aliasing on the samples posted several months ago. Also, noise is visible at full resolution. Why in bright light there should be noise -- I have no idea.

PS: there are dozens of GH4 samples on-line:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=U...&v=JyB2_COzWsU

7 things we discovered after shooting 4K with the GH4. You won?t like #4. – Eduardo Angel
What exactly are you viewing the 4K videos on? Your comments on "aliasing' are completely false if you are not watching on a 4K monitor. Any scaling can introduce artifacts.

Slashcam (a non-grumpy reviewer) has done a real review with *test charts* and finds the Sony AX100 to have almost 0 artifacts at 4K. It finds the Sony AX100 to be superior in 4K in resolution compared to the 1 DC, AX1, and the BM4K (has not tested the GH4), inclusive of moire and other artifacts. You can knock the manual and button placement all you want (purely subjective), but your comments on picture require suitable equipment.

Here is the Google translation of the Slashcam.de statement about resolution: "From all previously tested in our editorial 4K cameras (1 DC, BM4K , AX1 ) shows the Sony AX100 , the best so far , almost perfect 4K sharpness. Perfect mainly because the debayering the color channels without moiré pattern or other proceeds."

And, a Youtube video is not a "sample." A sample is a clip/video straight from the camera. There are plenty of those from the AX100. All of the GH4 videos in any case are from "pre-production" cameras, which could be specially tweaked, or have faults, who knows?
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Old April 3rd, 2014, 10:34 AM   #824
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

No,..I'm no expert on the exact mathematics used in the scanning and de Bayering the image sensor of either the AX100 or the GH4. The only people on the planet that know this exactly are the very small hand full of engineers at Sony and Panasonic that designed their circuits. Everything else is just marketing material.

I'm not going to try to retrace everything I have read about it. Just Google it, read about it and decide what you believe is right or wrong. There is plenty more out there too to find and read.

That AX100 is CRAZY sharp! The footage I'm shooting is blowing me away in that category. So far, from the limited material I have seen from the GH4, it doesn't quite seem to compare. (maybe that will change when the GH4 finally comes out)

I'm going to put my AX100 up against my EX1r and FS100 this weekend on a "dynamic range" shootout test. should be interesting!

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Old April 3rd, 2014, 11:09 AM   #825
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
OK, saw a bit of "stutter" in that track meet video... hope it was 24p or something intentional (I've seen some video I think introduces that look on purpose). But freezing frames, they looked pretty clean, and that opening shot... not sure if it was done live somehow or green screened or what... but "wow"... very 3D feel!
Well remember, this is exactly the kind of event that I wouldn't recommend using a 30p camera. Yet it acquitted itself very well. I know the shooter and he was delighted.

He used rails for the opening shot, not green screened.
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