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Old April 3rd, 2014, 09:46 PM   #841
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Here is a quick and dirty UN SCIENTIFIC test of dynamic range between the AX100, FS100 and EX1r.

I set the bright lit area to the right at just barely 100 IRE on each camera and let the rest of the shadows below it fall as it may. (when you place it into your NLE, your scopes will place the top peak highlight at about 95 IRE or so.)

These are all un graded screen caps. However, please note that there are 2 FS 100 frame captures. One used no profile and the other used the Able Cine flat profile. The FS100 is an 8 bit sensor read out and written to an 8 bit codec so I don't think the flat profile will really add any "true" dynamic range. (FS100 lens is a Sigma 18-35 f1.8 Nikon mount with no F-Stop value)

Grade them any way you want and compare. There is a significant difference in the 3 cameras.

This test was done in a very dimly lit storage room. So it's a really brutal low light test.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Shootout.zip

CT
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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:30 AM   #842
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Steve must be seeing things most of the rest of us aren't. ... Very perplexing.
Steve Mullen has been doing this for a very long time - DV Info's tech troll. His posts are the primary reason why I left active posting years ago. Ironically a Google search looking for reports on this camera popped this thread up high, so I thought I would look at reports, and unfortunately you have to wade through endless back and forth posts with Mullen, yet another thread hijacked.

I'm sure this post of mine won't have long life here ironically if DV Info is still like it was when I left - when wholesale pruning of threads occurred to supposedly "lower the noise floor". However, this thread as is noisy as it gets - looks like over 50 posts from him that amount to "hates the manual, hates the controls". For some reason Mullen has endured by sheer persistence.

There are other places to discuss cameras, fortunately.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 05:04 AM   #843
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Siamidis View Post
Amazon.com: Opteka MOON Grip (Black): Camera & Photo
The AX100 mounts to that perfectly even with a FV100 battery on it, but be aware you can't use the viewfinder when using it, you have to use the pop out lcd screen.
I take an interest for Opteka MOON Grip but I like to understand better beause I'm not an expert guy about Steadycam. Unfortunately you cannot use the zoom too and it will a little problem for me. Do you know some tricks to use the zoom with Opteka MOON Grip? Opteka MOON Grip has not a mechanical release, therefore it cannot balance at all the movement. It is a handle only, Is it right?
Thanks for other infos
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Last edited by Adriano Moroni; April 4th, 2014 at 06:20 AM.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 06:18 AM   #844
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Sony FDR-AX100 Better Manual

Found this online... better than manual found with camera.... Check it out


http://download.sony-europe.com/pub/...X900_HG_EN.pdf
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Old April 4th, 2014, 07:06 AM   #845
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Steve Mullen View Post
I5) But what if your computer or TV isn't 4K? How can you see aliasing? Because aliasing has very visible low resolution component. (In fact, aliasing by definition is low frequency information. Frequencies higher than the the Nyquist frequency fold-over and become low frequency information.)
That's all true - though I may have been tempted to say "aliasing by definition is low frequency MISinformation" :-)

But any act of viewing 4k on a non-4k TV must involve downconversion, and such can also produce it's own aliasing - even if none was present on the original footage.

So if you do see aliasing on a non-4k display, how can you be sure it's generated by the camera (in the method you accurately describe) and not by the display downconversion?
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Old April 4th, 2014, 09:31 AM   #846
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by David Heath View Post
So if you do see aliasing on a non-4k display, how can you be sure it's generated by the camera (in the method you accurately describe) and not by the display downconversion?
Correct. That's why some players are better than others. In Windows 8.1, WMP does an exceptionally good job of this. I see no artifacts when viewing 4K files via WMP.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 09:34 AM   #847
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100 Better Manual

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Originally Posted by Rodman Bourne View Post
Found this online... better than manual found with camera.... Check it out

http://downloa.sony-europe.com/pub/m...X900_HG_EN.pdf
Thanks Rodman for a constructive post. This manual may well be more helpful to many than the one that comes with the camera.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 11:07 AM   #848
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adriano Moroni View Post
I take an interest for Opteka MOON Grip but I like to understand better beause I'm not an expert guy about Steadycam. Unfortunately you cannot use the zoom too and it will a little problem for me. Do you know some tricks to use the zoom with Opteka MOON Grip? Opteka MOON Grip has not a mechanical release, therefore it cannot balance at all the movement. It is a handle only, Is it right?
Thanks for other infos
I actually never use zoom on any of my video camera's, it's not something ever needed for my filming hence I always have the camera at it's widest settings. So alas I couldn't tell you how it would be to use zoom while using a handle like the moon grip.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:06 PM   #849
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Last edited by Steve Mullen; April 4th, 2014 at 12:37 PM.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:08 PM   #850
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

DIRECT QUOTES FROM THE IN-DEPTH AX100 REVIEW AT SLASHCAM SO YOU CAN CHECKOUT WHAT ANOTHER PROFESSIONAL REVIEWER THINKS OF THE AX100. I GUESS YOU CAN NOW ADD ANOTHER PERSON TO YOUR HATE LIST.

But over similar introductions in the past, the FDR-A100 meets this time on a much different market environment. The camera itself is compared to the larger models clearly designed differently, which leads even partially, that they even have it in some disciplines behind. << BEHIND IN TECHNOLOGY >>

But over similar introductions in the past, the FDR-A100 meets this time on a much different market environment. << AS I POSTED DAYS AGO >>

Compared with real professional models, the FDR-AX100 must be within the Sony portfolios therefore somehow clearly deposed what Sony by an 8 bit Codec limitation, relatively low 4K data rate (60 Mbps)

But it is precisely this lack of time points could ensure that Sony will enter this market strategy to launch 4K not so great successes. << HARDLY A POSITIVE COMMENT AND OUTLOOK >> For the first time in history we experience camcorder there are already considerable competition when Sony this time enters the relatively young 4K consumer market.

Thus, the FDR-X100 limited in XAVC S 4K recording the data stream to about 60 Mbit /s Since this is not yet to be a h.265/HEVC-Codec, this is about a AVCHD FullHD power with 15Mbit /s comparable. For some, moving some details short. << THIS MAY BE CRITICAL >>

Although the Sony camera has a built-Rolling Shutter Correction, but this does not work as unobtrusively as we were used to from Sony 2K models by far. << TAKE NOTE >>

External, manual, separate button / wheel combinations for Shutter, Gain, shutter, and white balance provide in principle with the Sony for good control. However, the buttons are very small and without tactile feedback. << OPINION ALERT >>

The lens ring can be switched between Zoom and focus switch, the zoom rocker is the better choice for zooming, as a rule. This also acts as a very sensitive, but is a bit small for professional use. . << OPINION ALERT >>

Our test model did not allow for any of our test lab cards with XAVC S to write, even if they were quick enough with security (eg SanDisk Extreme Pro). Only a Sony 64GB SDXC UHS-I card made possible the 4K recording. << GUESS THEY DIDN'T READ THE MANUAL >>

Unfortunately occurs, a non-suppressible significant sharpening up without which the sony picture would be significantly cinematic. << SHARPNESS IS AT ODDS WITH CINEMATIC QUALITY >>

From all previously tested in our editorial 4K cameras shows the Sony AX100, the best so far, almost perfect 4K sharpness. << BEST SO FAR AT SHARPNESS -- NOT BEST SO FAR CAMERA >>

The FDR-AX100 does many things right and in itself is a sound device. But Sony is also introducing this new format as in the past, in what could prove to be a strategic mistake.<< !!! >. For the first time, there are already 4K beginning serious competitor, who has heard more clearly on the user requirements in recent years.This is now less in the pure cine niche for the Black Magic 4K, but much more for the Panasonic GH4 which more abundant for the same money, in part, provides professional opportunities, but produce the same for the typical consumer at least can be interesting as well. << LOOKING AT VALUE >>

Panasonic dares (unlike Sony) with the GH4 for the first time, not artificially to protect its own Pro devices, but on with the GH4 any possibility of free, which seems to be somehow justifiable in this price range. Sony would do so, the FDR-AX100 would be much more competitive. << THEY SEE IT AS LESS COMPETITIVE >> But at the moment it looks like as if Panasonic most 4K heart can clearly win in this price range. << THE GH4 IS THE BEST CAMERA >>

Even if scenic and cinematic work is not the strength of the FDR-AX100, << EXACTLY >> it is nevertheless a nice 4K model for all who do not need the flexibility and the data rates of GH4 and / or are looking for a relatively compact all-in-one, which allows users to quickly shoot out of hand. << EXACTLY >>

ENOUGH TIME ON THIS SILLY DEBATE. BACK TO WORK.

THE QUESTION TO BE SOLVED IS WHY THE ARTIFACTS ARE ONLY SEEN WHEN VIEWED AT 4K RESOLUTION AND NOT WHEN DOWNSCALED. IF YOU ARE NOT LOOKING AT THE PIXELS DESTINED FOR A 4K DISPLAY -- YOU ARE SEEING SMOOTHED PIXELS AND SO TINY ARTIFACTS WILL NOT BE SEEN. SO NOT SEEING ARTIFACTS IS MEANINGLESS. ESPECIALLY ARTIFACTS OF THE TYPE THAT ONLY OCCUR UNDER SPECIFIC SITUATIONS. SEEING NOTHING IS A NEGATIVE AND ONE CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE.

WANT TO SEE THE ARTIFACTS -- NOT VISBLE IN THE FIRST FHD SLIDE. NEXT THREE SLIDES ARE FROM 4K IMAGES:

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Old April 4th, 2014, 12:54 PM   #851
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

So over-sharpened and compression artefacts when viewed as 4K presumably due to the low bit-rate use.

Nothing can be done about the bit-rate unless someone finds a hack for the firmware, but can't sharpening be turned off? Still some people like the false look of lots of sharpening, but less sharpening would help a little towards reducing that mosquito noise, and can always be applied later "to taste".

Regards

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Old April 4th, 2014, 01:13 PM   #852
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Cliff Totten, thanks for the 'Dynamic Range' shots. For my needs, doing some Pan&Scan in post of theater footage, the darker blacks would be important to me. Could you take the AX100 footage and bring up the blacks without too much noise?
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Old April 4th, 2014, 01:52 PM   #853
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Steve, you are hysterical. You have mastered the art of suppressing anything positive and accentuating anything negative. Even you editorial remark that the GH4 is 'the best camera', is clearly something you have made up. That is NOT what the review said. You are truly disingenuous in your writing style. If you think your style is 'objective', I would suggest you look the up the meaning. An objective person would have said that the GH4 may be the better camera for SOME PEOPLE. That would depend on their use and application. But a blanket statement like yours simply discloses your motive pure & simple.

I've seen the AX100 output on an 85" UHD TV and I don't see the artifacts and I didn't press my nose up against the screen. "Proving" artifacts by showing a 720p YouTube video, greatly enlarged, is truly, honestly, hysterical. If owners saw anything like that, there would be returns galore. There aren't. Owners, even those that approached the purchase with some skepticism, have been won over by the wonderful output of this camera.

You have bent over 21 ways to Sunday to show your dislike for the camera, we get it. And yes, this is enough of your silliness.

Looks like Stephen van Vuuren nailed it in his previous post. Trolling by any other name.
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Old April 4th, 2014, 01:57 PM   #854
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Back to our regularly scheduled program. A brief AX100 video for which the full rez file can be downloaded if you're a member.

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Old April 4th, 2014, 02:21 PM   #855
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
Hi

So over-sharpened and compression artefacts when viewed as 4K presumably due to the low bit-rate use.

Phil
That's where I was going.

Folks saying they didn't see aliasing had me go back at look at the "artifacts." Most were around tiny details so they certainly seemed like aliasing. But, then I found crap around the big black lamp. No way this could be aliasing -- way too big an object. Moreover, it was blocky -- suggesting compression artifacts.

So I used Pavtube to convert one .mp4 clip to uncompressed 422. No artifacts! So it wasn't IN the .mp4 clips. But I still had no fix. :(

Started with FCP X. I imported clip as .mp4 copy and generated FHD proxy. According to Apple, when the export is done -- the original .mp4 would be used. Export still had artifacts!

Next step, import .mp4 clip converted to ProRes 422 UHD and ProRes Proxy FHD. Surely, during export FCP X would chose the ProRes 422 UHD. Export still had artifacts!

So, I imported making ProRes 422 UHD but not ProRes Proxy FHD. Now I had to switch from viewing Proxy to viewing Optimized (ProRes 422 UHD) video. Thankfully, this still plays fine. Now during export, FCP X had no chance to use the FHD proxy. Export had NO artifacts! Either FCP X has a nasty bug -- or I'm missing something. However, FCP X has always worked fine in the past.

Adding to the confusion -- when a bad export was played at FHD the artifacts were smoothed out and couldn't be seen. But, as I posted, not seeing something doesn't mean something isn't there. Only when I played ALL (1:1) pixels -- could the artifacts be seen. That was my fear. These wouldn't be seen when watched on an HDTV, but as soon as one bought a UHDTV, they would see the artifacts. Too late -- screwed.

One other puzzle was revealed. Why didn't my exports look super high-resolution? Because they were UHD to FHD to UHD.

-----------------------------

Someone posted they were going to export movies to an SDXC card and then plug it into their future UHDTV. Assuming the UHDTV needs -- as I expect it will -- XAVC S clips, the poster will have to find an XAVC S ENCODER that plugs-in to their NLE. So far, it doesn't look like Sony has released one. Someone should check Vegas. If it's there, try writing to an SDXC card and seeing if the camera will play it. If there isn't one, the SDXC card idea won't work. Streaming will be necessary.

============= UPDATE

It seems one does not need to import to both OPTIMIZE and PROXY. Simply import COPY TO FCP X and CREATE PROXY.

Until the Proxy has been made, select PLAY ORIGINAL. Editing may be slow depending on your computer.

Once Proxy is ready, switch to PLAY PROXY.

Before Export, you must switch to PLAY ORIGINAL!

Now, I need to re-edit and post some of what I shot.
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Last edited by Steve Mullen; April 4th, 2014 at 05:18 PM.
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