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Old April 17th, 2014, 03:51 PM   #1036
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quick test to see if CIZ Is "working" - turn off the active stabilization and check the framing at max zoom - it would seem that Sony has changed the implementation of CIZ and Digital so that CIZ is not even being indicated on the display?? That would throw us long time Sony users for a bit of a loop!


Finally realized I have a 4K output capable machine - had to manually configure the HDMI output, but WHOA, a 4K desktop can look rather nice - won't get to try some 4K YouTube videos for a few days, but at least now I will be able to actually see 4K output, such as YT can supply. I continue to be baffled by those saying you can't see the difference between 1080 and 4K... Perhaps if you don't get all the pieces in the right order or something, but that 4K desktop, with RX10 still wallpaper was like looking through a window, once again - you see things that you just couldn't quite make out at 1080! It's not my eyes that are fuzzy, it's the screens!
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Old April 17th, 2014, 04:23 PM   #1037
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst View Post
Quick test to see if CIZ Is "working" - turn off the active stabilization and check the framing at max zoom - it would seem that Sony has changed the implementation of CIZ and Digital so that CIZ is not even being indicated on the display?? That would throw us long time Sony users for a bit of a loop!
!
considering how sloppy and cluttered the full display info is, i guess they figured just to let it be magic

Just ran a bunch of tests, thanks to a1ex for posting a star chart on the lantern forums, and well, looks impressive to my eye how little degradation there is with the CIZ. i do NOT have a 4k monitor, so i have to resort to simply playing it windowed in VLC so it shows 1:1 pixels

compared full wide, half range, and full tele with and without CIZ, if there's degradation, it's really not much at all(apparent in this test at least), which is very nice to have. makes sense though, 18 is 50% more than 12, so figure since they can get good looking 2x CIZ with the extra rez for HD, 1.5x for 4k should indeed be at least very good.

For anyone whose seeing poor results with active stabilizer on, what scenarios have you seen it go south?

EDIT: scrutinizing further, yes there's some sharpness loss but still on my admittedly limited monitor needs peeping to see
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Old April 17th, 2014, 04:50 PM   #1038
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Many of the posts here show the value of this thread - confusion cleared up - but also an alarming tendency: Almost everyone assumed, when they were not fully informed, that there was something wrong with the camera rather than that their understanding was incomplete.

Cases in point:

1. The video has terrible aliasing artifacts - turns out it was the editing software and viewing device. Took multiple threads to straighten this out. But the camera was blamed as having a problem of artifacts over and over, and over, and over. Those who tried to straighten this out were called fanboys.

2. There is no mic input, or I can't believe you have to plug the mic in the headphone jack. Guy could not read correctly the manual diagram. Kept dissing the camera for its stupid design, over and over.

3. There is no Clear Zoom or clear zoom is not working. Turns out the guy assumed he would see an icon when this was invoked, and so concluded that it was not working when not invoked. The assumption was not crazy as it was on older models, but there is a statement that he actually saw it once before on the AX100 so it must be broke. The Ax100 manual shows no CIZ icon, but does show an Active mode icon, and they are one and the same.

This behavior led to some heated reactions, not surprisingly.

It would have been nice if:

Case 1 were instead: Why am I seeing aliasing artifacts and no one else?
Case 2 were instead: Where is the mic input, or why can't *I* find it?
Case 3 were instead: How come there is no Clear Zoom *icon*?

Assume the camera is at fault seems to be the mode.

We do need our own AX100 thread.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 04:58 PM   #1039
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hey Mark, you know what's also alarming? Your attitude.

I was clearly trying to figure out what i was missing about the feature and get a consensus on whether or not it in fact was something i was missing or a camera glitch. because guess what: glitches happen. Others were helpful without the snark, you on the other hand spoke with an edge(and such things are what lead to heated reactions), whether you realize it or not.

keep it chill, or no cookie
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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:28 PM   #1040
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

As most of you know I have an AX1 and on the topic of artifacts you all may try something that may be the reason for Steve's problem. If I place a 3840x2160 60P 150Mbps clip in CS6, Vegas Pro12 or Edius Pro7 projects then resize the preview monitor I can make artifacts appear and disappear depending on the preview window size. I have 3 monitors on my PC two 24" Dells and a 23" Viewsonic VT2300LED TV/monitor. None of these artifacts appear if exported with Laczsos3 to 1920x1080. All these NLE's, I assume , use different scaling algorithms so will induce different effects during scaling for the preview monitor. Moral is if the monitor does not show the 1:1 image be careful with any conclusions. Looking at Steve's png it appears to be 1440x900 clearly a window capture from the monitor and of almost no value.

This lesson of course applies to everyone when editing 4k on a system that has to scale for editing. The reason for the Viewsonic in my setup is to get a 1920x1080 image from the preview monitor for editing. I guess a 4K unit is coming soon !!!

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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1041
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Darren Levine View Post
Hey Mark, you know what's also alarming? Your attitude.

I was clearly trying to figure out what i was missing about the feature and get a consensus on whether or not it in fact was something i was missing or a camera glitch. because guess what: glitches happen. Others were helpful without the snark, you on the other hand spoke with an edge(and such things are what lead to heated reactions), whether you realize it or not.

keep it chill, or no cookie
Darren, I don't think Mark was trying to approach this with an 'attitude'. His posts were the result of frustration. My posts too have had an edge to them, particularly with one poster, for the same reason.

Our frustration comes from not just this forum, but others where the AX100 is constantly attacked for reasons we know are not valid. The mistakes, biases, and malicious motivations that result in these posts make us want to knock our heads against the wall. It's always the camera that's blamed and rarely the person asking "am I doing something wrong, as nobody else appears to be seeing this".

Hopefully most of the "OE" issues (operator error) have been ironed out. :)

Last edited by Ken Ross; April 17th, 2014 at 08:45 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:44 PM   #1042
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Mark thanks! I was looking in the wrong part of Windows 8. However, your guess was partly right, it is a Macbook Pro running Win 8 under Bootcamp.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 05:55 PM   #1043
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Darren, I don't think Mark was trying to approach this with an 'attitude'. His posts were the result of frustration. My posts too have had an edge to them, particularly with one poster, for the same reason.

Our frustration comes from not just this forum, but others where the AX100 is constantly attacked for reasons we know are not valid. The mistakes, biases, and malicious motivations that result in these posts make us wanting to knock our heads against the wall. It's always the camera that's blamed and rarely the person asking "am I doing something wrong, as nobody else appears to be seeing this".

Hopefully most of the "OE" issues (operator error) have been ironed out. :)
Yep, i don't think he meant to have an edge either, many times on forums people don't realize how what they write might sound and come off to others. Making them aware of it is the only way they'd ever know.

Even our resident italian fellow who had trouble understanding the mic port, obviously had a language barrier. That, and you never know just what a persons age is on a forum, so as head-banging as some posts might be, it's never a bad idea to be polite, or just to ignore altogether if the frustration is just too much.

and yea, 70 pages is a thoroughly beaten dead horse. would be good to bury it and separate into targeted threads.
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Old April 17th, 2014, 06:12 PM   #1044
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Darren Levine View Post
Hey Mark, you know what's also alarming? Your attitude.

I was clearly trying to figure out what i was missing about the feature and get a consensus on whether or not it in fact was something i was missing or a camera glitch. because guess what: glitches happen. Others were helpful without the snark, you on the other hand spoke with an edge(and such things are what lead to heated reactions), whether you realize it or not.

keep it chill, or no cookie
Camera glitches happen far, far, far less than user error or ignorance. You can look it up (and this thread is a prime example) or talk to any tech support personnel - the first thing they always hear is that there is something wrong with their device. So why assume what is improbable?
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Old April 17th, 2014, 08:58 PM   #1045
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Darren,

It has long been Sony's tradition that the thing you get when zooming in IN the Active OIS mode is extra (or digital or Clear Image or whatever) zoom effect as the result of cropping and re-scaling of the optically-zoomed image frame. It just comes with Active OIS. No need to look for any physical or menu button.

I have this same thing on many of my older Sony Handycams but they somehow didn't call it Clear Image Zoom in the old days. If you don't like digital interpolation, the only choice you have is stick to the Standard OIS.

You can read my posts a few pages back on this same thread and you'll understand this.
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Old April 18th, 2014, 01:27 AM   #1046
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

one of the challenges here is that there are subtle differences between menu/display/feature implementations between Sony models (and of course some major feature/spec differences).

The RX's (10 &100/m2) have one way of implementing things, and it's apparent that the AX takes a few different directions, more in line with older Handycams, at least in some respects...

It's a little bit easy to get confused if you happen to have a couple different Sonys floating around, and it's annoying when there are these little annoying variations...

I'm sure this is a result of different "teams" developing cameras, but it wouldn't hurt if there was a consistent feature and menu set....

Things like the LANC implementation that varies between the RX's and the AX for instance are a royal PITA, as using a remote becomes an interesting/frustrating exercise...

If Sony was listening, a "unified" menu/accessory/MULTI jack/MiS and display method would be "really good"!


Just an idea for those looking for "cheap" HD displays - Seiki makes a 39" 4K TV, a tad big for the average desk, but I scored a lightly used one, and for the bang/buck ratio, it's worth a look. Figuring you can get the equivalent of 4x 1080 screens on one display, maybe the real estate issue isn't really THAT bad!

Now to put a new 4K capable system core together - any suggestions on ways to save on budget?? Thinking i7 4770K, a Z87 motherboard with built in 4K capability, and 16G RAM to start... Probably add an SSD for speed, but old HDD's may need to suffice for now....

Let's all hit Chris Hurd up for a "4K" forum section, with all the brave souls stumbling forward into the great unknown with AX100's, GH4's and whatever else is "affordable" 4K!
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Old April 18th, 2014, 05:35 AM   #1047
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

One thing I think worth noting, is the 4K implementation of CIZ. I feel in terms of image degradation, it's better than a similar implementation in HD. Since there are 4X as many pixels for the system to play with, the softening of the image is less noticeable. Yes you can still see it, but I find it less objectionable.
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Old April 18th, 2014, 08:36 AM   #1048
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Wacharapong Chiowanich View Post
Darren,

It has long been Sony's tradition that the thing you get when zooming in IN the Active OIS mode is extra (or digital or Clear Image or whatever) zoom effect as the result of cropping and re-scaling of the optically-zoomed image frame. It just comes with Active OIS. No need to look for any physical or menu button.

I have this same thing on many of my older Sony Handycams but they somehow didn't call it Clear Image Zoom in the old days. If you don't like digital interpolation, the only choice you have is stick to the Standard OIS.
Thanks Wacharapong, though active OIS on its own wasn't quite the issue at hand, as i'm aware of traditional active OIS and its side affects, what i wasn't aware of is that they added the clear image zoom into the overall optical zoom range instead of putting it at the end with a marker to indicate the end of the optical range and beginning of the ciz range(as it was in other cameras such as the RX10)

CIZ in more recent sony cameras such as the RX10 is an indication of a separate, extra zoom range which was not at all connected to the active OIS. and in this case they combined it with active OIS for some reason, i suppose they figured with that extra reach should come extra stabilization since the standard ois isn't terribly amazing.

If i understand what you've concluded, you're thinking is that they are just calling the aftereffects of active ois(extra reach) CIZ. I tend to think otherwise, since at the long end you're getting 50% more range, and i've yet to hear of an active OIS that has an aftereffect of 50% cropping.

For what it is, it works and looks pretty darn nice, but yes indeed, not quite an optical equivalant
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Old April 18th, 2014, 08:44 AM   #1049
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Now to put a new 4K capable system core together - any suggestions on ways to save on budget?? Thinking i7 4770K, a Z87 motherboard with built in 4K capability, and 16G RAM to start... Probably add an SSD for speed, but old HDD's may need to suffice for now....
I'd insist on an SSD, think of all the random read/writes over those large file sizes.... SSDs can be had a .50cents per gigabye. a terabyte is a few dozen hours of footage to scratch on. And it's one of the longer term investments you can make these days, they may continue to up the speed, but most are doing half a gig per second both ways, which should remain beyond usable for quite a few years

and ram is the other cheapo upgrade, double down to 32gb. especially if you're on adobe, which seems to have a limitless hunger for ram
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Old April 18th, 2014, 08:59 AM   #1050
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I'd go for a raid array of HD's with a dedicated raid card, you"ll need plenty of space for certain 4k codecs and with several HD's chained together read and write speeds won't be a bottleneck + you"ll get much more space for the same money compared to ssd.
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