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Old May 3rd, 2014, 03:35 AM   #1111
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
Hi



You seem to the be first person finding these issues, I don't see any problems in GH4 clips that have been posted or anyone else talking about it.

Perhaps you just have a faulty camera or lens and/or are expecting the GH4 to behave like a consumer camcorder, when most people understand it will not.

It's a digital mirror-less camera that shoots great video but needs some time and work for that, if you want point and shoot, a traditional camcorder is what you need and what you have.

Regards

Phil
The effect had been noted in other threads as well, it was not just his camera.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 03:44 AM   #1112
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Of course Phil you will never have anything good to say about the AX100. That's already been established more times than I can count
I think the problem Ken is my posts with you have usually been to counter your over praising of the Sony AX100, it is a good camcorder, nothing wrong with it. I don't think I've particularly said anything negative about it for the sake of it. I was even going to buy it for the 1080P and it's 50Mbps capture, but I've yet to see any native files of 1080P, and it's a big old thing just for 1080P, compared to something more compact and flexible like the GH4, which goes up to 100 or 200Mbps for 1080P and takes fantastic pictures, the GH4 is where I'm heading.

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Phil, I don't know what your motivation is for so despising the Sony, but I find it so very odd. I suspect one day we'll find out. Don't you find the GH4 makes you 'physically ill' as you've stated numerous times relative to the AX100? Or does the same 30fps on the GH4 make you 'feel better'?
I don't despise it at all, it's just a gadget, I think despise is out of context :) I've personally no interest in 24/25 or 30p at 4K resolutions, I've made that clear, the type of camera capturing it doesn't make a difference in my view. When 4K reaches maturity and we have 60fps capture, I'm in.

Quote:
Phil, I have had numerous DSLRs and have shot lots of video with them and know full well what their foibles are. I know the autofocus on DSLRs when shooting video is poor. However the issues I was having with the GH4 went beyond that and I proved that with video evidence. I don't have any grudges against one camera vs another as you most obviously do.

I was perfectly willing to work a bit harder for good video that exceeded that of the AX100, but even when I did work harder for those results, I found the video produced by the AX100 to be superior, IMO. We know for a fact that its resolution is higher than the GH4. That's been tested and proved.
Your hobby doesn't seem to be videography, it appears to be just lusting after the next camera and debating endlessly about them, certainly that is the case on another forum, just go out and film your friends and family and happy memories, when you watch those things back in my experience no one is watching for odd "micro" wobbles or pixel peeping or even care if it's SD, HD or 4K.

Regards

Phil
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 06:25 AM   #1113
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

No Phil, you have demonstrated a particular distaste for the AX100, that's simply a fact. When two cameras demonstrate a similar issue, you will always ignore the issue in camera B and point to the AX100 as the camera with the problem.

Even my posted video proof that my GH4 produced the heat wave effect at telephoto focal lengths and my AX100 did not, was apparently not enough for you. These were clips shot at the same time, same location and same subject. Instead of admitting the AX100 was free of this issue, you felt compelled to say that you thought you had seen something like that effect with the AX100. I asked you for a link to any clip from any AX100 production camera that showed anything like what I demonstrated with the GH4. You have not done so. You never will.

This is not the first time posters have asked you for links to evidence to back up your odd assertions. The sad fact is you never do Phil. Never. And you have been called out on this by multiple posters. You're credibility is in doubt.

You grudgingly referred to the camera in your last post as 'good'. I think you know damn well the camera is better than 'good'. A $400 AVCHD camera may be 'good'. But shooting the kind of 4K footage it does, setting a precedent for the kind of PQ it produces in a unit this small is just 'good'? C'mon Phil, you give it all away there.

Your endless 'the AX100 clips make me physically ill' comments are hysterical. The same footage shot with the GH4, shot at the same frame rate, elicits no such comment.

And you feel the need to counter my enthusiasm for the AX100? Say what? Do you not see that as a somewhat bizarre behavioral pattern? Does it so bother you when someone feels they are getting footage that is so much better than any camera they've used before? Does it so bother you that someone is enjoying their camera? I'm sorry, that's a really odd motivation to feel compelled to throw cold water on positive comments. If my comments regarding the AX100 are TECHNICALLY inaccurate, then point that out. But to feel compelled to counter someone's enthusiasm simply because they're enthused? Sorry Phil, sounds both childish and rooted in a bit of jealousy. You must be great at parties.

As I've said before, we differ because you are technically inaccurate in many of your comments. You don't own the AX100 and have never seen the AX100 footage on a large screen UHD TV, yet you seem to be an expert about the AX100.

Finally, your comment about videography not being my hobby is supremely ignorant. These forums are filled with people who 'lust after their next camera' BECAUSE their hobby is videography. This simply eludes you.

What I find amazing about guys like you Phil, is that you have zero interest in buying an AX100. All you do is forum jump to throw stones at a camera you have no intention of buying. There's a word for that Phil, it's called TROLLING.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 06:47 AM   #1114
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Even my posted video proof that my GH4 produced the heat wave effect at telephoto focal lengths and my AX100 did not
Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pÔrticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 07:28 AM   #1115
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Ken, I recently picked up the GH4. I thought seriously about the AX100, but chose the GH4 because it is also a full-fledged stills camera, has more versatile recording options, and seems to have better dynamic range. The AX100 is a camcorder, and this makes it superior in many ways for run and gun kinds of video without the need for changing lenses and more careful attention to setting up shots. The AX100 may have better resolution as well, I don't know. I agree with Noa, I think the heat wave effect is rolling shutter, and it may be more pronounced on the GH4 because the AX100 image stabilization is more effective. Panasonic lenses seem to have weaker IS capabilities in many cases. Were you shooting in 24p on the GH4? Rolling shutter is lower in 30p and way lower in 60p 1080p on the GH4.

These 2 great cameras have different strengths and weaknesses. I am still tempted to get an AX100, but I think the GH4 has deeper potential for professional work, but probably requires a bit more fuss to get the best out of it.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:07 AM   #1116
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pÔrticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.
I agree, rolling shutter is probably a contributing factor here.

Some footage of the AX100 also demonstrates similar affects, although someone is blaming that on a pre-production model, although originally they said they couldn't see it at all on this footage, all discussed in this very thread.

SONY FDR-AX100 4k vido camera in FDR-AX100 - 4K-USER GROUP on Vimeo at 1:40 very noticable wobbles across different parts of the frame and worse later on.

I suppose what we should ask is for the person experiencing this issue to find similar problems on other footage posted out there from the GH4, and there is plenty to choose from, if it can't be found, then the likelihood is the posters camera or lens is faulty or badly calibrated, so lets not throw the baby out with the bath water just yet.

Still I've seen similar things on various HD camcorders with OIS although not as bad, and given the longer read-out time for 4K so rolling shutter is worse (that footage is riddled with it, any verticals get distorted for the smallest wobble), and you get the lenses moving around and re-positioning faster than the read-out time then I think this is just a characteristic of OIS and 4K under certain circumstances, certainly for the time being until read-out times improve.

Also no one said OIS is perfect, and it has an off button and tripod mounts for a reason. :)

Regards

Phil
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:13 AM   #1117
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pÔrticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.

Noa, yes, that was with the new version of the Lumix 14-140 lens with OIS engaged. I don't pretend to know what's causing it, but it's really bad as you can see.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:16 AM   #1118
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Pat Reddy View Post
Ken, I recently picked up the GH4. I thought seriously about the AX100, but chose the GH4 because it is also a full-fledged stills camera, has more versatile recording options, and seems to have better dynamic range. The AX100 is a camcorder, and this makes it superior in many ways for run and gun kinds of video without the need for changing lenses and more careful attention to setting up shots. The AX100 may have better resolution as well, I don't know. I agree with Noa, I think the heat wave effect is rolling shutter, and it may be more pronounced on the GH4 because the AX100 image stabilization is more effective. Panasonic lenses seem to have weaker IS capabilities in many cases. Were you shooting in 24p on the GH4? Rolling shutter is lower in 30p and way lower in 60p 1080p on the GH4.

These 2 great cameras have different strengths and weaknesses. I am still tempted to get an AX100, but I think the GH4 has deeper potential for professional work, but probably requires a bit more fuss to get the best out of it.
Hey Pat. Yup, I agree with virtually everything you said.

All shots were made at 4K resolution @30p.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:25 AM   #1119
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Of course we've seen no evidence that the AX100 has a 'similar effect'. It is very obvious the heat wave effect is far worse on the GH4 and I've seen nothing like it on the AX100.

The one clip that Phil showed of the AX100 was both a pre-production unit and didn't show the issue anywhere near the magnitude of what I posted with the GH4. In fact, the clip really didn't show anything other than what one would expect from an unsteady hand.

Now since the GH4 was only released days ago, we don't begin to have the library of clips we have from the AX100. I have yet to see an AX100 clip that shows anything like the heat wave effect.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:25 AM   #1120
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Ouch, and I thought the rolling shutter on the ax100 could look bad. The longest zoom lens I use to shoot handheld on my gh3 is the 12-35mm, anything longer then that will be tripod mounted. From what I understand the rolling shutter is worse in 4k 25p compared to 1080p 50p? In any case, my experience tells me that you should not use a gh3/4 type of camera in that way, it's no excuses to cover up it apparent rolling shutter issues but a dslr is not build to provide you supersmooth 200mm handheld footage, handicams are, eventhough the ax100 is no match for the satbilisation of the cx730 it still seems plenty good enough to get stable enough shots at the long end of the lens.

The gh4 is not a run and gun camera and can't really be compared to a ax100, they are both 2 totally different camera's for different purposes, the gh4 will give you more possibilities in lens choices, shallow dof, codecs and image presets but the ax100 is a bit like the rx10 a all in one powerhouse that does most stuff well to really well. A GH4 will require an experienced operator to get the most from it while the ax100 can make a soccermam look good. :) Don't get me wrong with that last statement, I do have small handicams and dslr's that I use for my paid projects and for any quick and dirty work I much prefer my handicams over my dslr's but when I have the time to set up I much prefer my dslr's.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 09:31 AM   #1121
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Well put Noa. Agreed.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 10:15 AM   #1122
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post
Now since the GH4 was only released days ago, we don't begin to have the library of clips we have from the AX100. I have yet to see an AX100 clip that shows anything like the heat wave effect.
There have been many samples of footage put out there from pre-production models and now retail ones, which if anything, according to your theory on pre-production models it seems, should have even more issues, so should be easier to find an example of your problem.

I put in GH4 on Vimeo and it came back with 800+ pages of results, is that not a big enough library? So I think I will accept what you mean is you haven't found any. ;-)

If you want a point and shoot camcorder then the AX100 is the best one there is for 4K, until next year, when all these discussions will no doubt start again. Video on a DSLR (or mirrorless) is a different beast entirely, one that doesn't suit your uses, the great thing about all this is, we have a choice to pick something that does suit us. For you, you are lucky to be able to afford to try both, and I'm sure all these discussions will be useful for helping those that can only manage to go with one or the other, to decide which camp to go into.

Regards

Phil
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 11:28 AM   #1123
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
Hi

There have been many samples of footage put out there from pre-production models and now retail ones, which if anything, according to your theory on pre-production models it seems, should have even more issues, so should be easier to find an example of your problem.

I put in GH4 on Vimeo and it came back with 800+ pages of results, is that not a big enough library? So I think I will accept what you mean is you haven't found any. ;-)
Wrong as usual. First off, I have no 'theory' about pre-production vs production other than the fact that with a production model we know we have the final firmware. But you knew that.

Second, of these 800+ pages of results, I guarantee you that most are shot at wide angle. Filter out those shot with the 14-140 2nd gen lens at full telephoto, then of those filter out those shot hand held and not tripod mounted and that get back to me. Let's see if you've even got 3 pages remaining ;)

C'mon Phil, this is really getting silly.

Edit: You are truly so disingenuous Phil. Did you actually go through ANY of those '800+ pages'? I gave up at 10 when all the hits had nothing to do with the GH4. NONE were related to tele shots with the 14-140 lens and most were simply repeats of clips we have seen for months prior to release. Just amazing. This is what I fight about on the internet. People deliberately being disingenuous and misleading. It serves no purpose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Lee View Post
If you want a point and shoot camcorder then the AX100 is the best one there is for 4K, until next year, when all these discussions will no doubt start again. Video on a DSLR (or mirrorless) is a different beast entirely, one that doesn't suit your uses, the great thing about all this is, we have a choice to pick something that does suit us. For you, you are lucky to be able to afford to try both, and I'm sure all these discussions will be useful for helping those that can only manage to go with one or the other, to decide which camp to go into.
On THAT we can finally agree. Let it be done.

Last edited by Ken Ross; May 3rd, 2014 at 12:00 PM.
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 11:35 AM   #1124
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

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Originally Posted by Noa Put View Post
Had to google to get to your vimeo account which had that pÔrticular video, can I ask Ken what lens was on the gh4 at that moment? Was it a stabilised one?
This looks like a rolling shutter issue to me.
It sure looks like a classic rolling shutter effect.
Can it be related to the number of channels/ports the readout from the sensor is done?
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Old May 3rd, 2014, 02:57 PM   #1125
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Petter, I'm not sure what causes it, but I don't believe this issue is 4K related.

I say that because I do recall seeing this on my GH3 when shooting with the first gen 14-140 lens. I actually dismissed it as being 'heat wave' related since I generally saw it at extreme telephoto focal lengths when shooting distant subjects.

However then I was not doing an A/B, so I had no reference. Now that I have a reference (the AX100), I was able to see that this was an issue just related to the GH4/14-140 lens combination. It was easy to see since the AX100 was devoid of it shooting the same distance, same subject and same time.

In fact, as I think about it, I never had the issue with the RX10 either when using OIS.

What's interesting is that I tested the GH4 indoors, at the same focal length, and yet saw none of this 'heat wave' effect. I even moved the camera a bit to simulate a bit of a windy condition and I couldn't induce it indoors with the OIS on. But as soon as I'd shoot a distant object outdoors, the issue reappeared.

So perhaps it's somehow related to the spacing of the lens elements as they move to a position of shooting something at infinity. This together with the OIS, brings about this distracting effect. Interestingly, tripod mounted with the OIS off, the issue disappears.

So I can tell you under what conditions they occur, but I wouldn't pretend to know the exact cause.
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