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Pro and consumer versions including PXW-Z150, PXW-Z100, PXW-X70 / FDR-AX100


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Old May 3rd, 2014, 05:51 PM   #1126
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Thanks for the information Ken.

With your description it do sound as if you are onto something regarding OIS and infinity focus together with the electronic shutter.

If so, one would think it should be quite easy for Panasonic to issue a firmware fix for the lens and/or the body.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 02:29 AM   #1127
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

There is also the human nature element at work here. We all shake when holding something, and it may be the case that someones frequency of shake may just exasperate the problem, like constructive interference. This may explain why the problem isn't universal for the same combination of lens and camera for everyone.

I wonder if Ken gave the camera to someone else to shoot if it would manifest itself the same? I know it sounds unlikely, but working in electronics and mechanics these are just the sort of odd interactions we see sometimes out in the field, so worth ruling out if nothing else.

Edit, in the instruction manual the following is printed:

The stabiliser function may not be effective in the
following cases.

When there is a lot of jitter.
When the zoom magnification is high.

So maybe it just shouldn't be expected to work at maximum zoom or if the operator is shaking too much?

Regards

Phil
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Old May 4th, 2014, 06:37 AM   #1128
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 07:37 AM   #1129
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Reddy View Post
I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.
Thanks Pat. I can't recall that on the GH2 either, just the GH3 & GH4. So now we have two confirmed reports, but worse, with 2 different lenses. So something is up here, just not sure what. I've used many cameras and many shooting with telephoto lenses and I can't recall ever seeing this issue. I certainly don't have a case of the 'shakes' as my videos don't depict any more or less shaking then the next guy. The whole point of OIS is to help when magnification increases. For the system to become so much less effective as well as adding significant artifacts, is not good.

Since I don't carry a tripod with me when shooting for pleasure, this is kind of a non-starter for me. For others who routinely use tripods, it's probably not a major issue as long as they turn OIS off, which you should do anyway with a tripod.

Hopefully Panasonic will issue a firmware update as more people experience this...and I'm sure they will as we see more shooting at telephoto lengths.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:09 AM   #1130
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Does the shake in the image appear in 1080p and 4k?
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:17 AM   #1131
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Noa, I'm sorry, I never checked it at 1080p. But given my similar experience with the GH3, a 1080p camera, I'd bet the answer is yes.

I truly doubt this is only manifested in 4K. At any rate I've returned my GH4.

We've got yet another report on another forum with a GH4 and the 14-140 lens. As I predicted, this issue will begin to pop up more and more as more folks shoot at telephoto lengths with the GH4. The other person reporting this, like me, also saw it on the GH3. So I'm really wondering if Panasonic will really release a firmware fix for this seeing as they didn't fix it on the GH4.

As the other poster mentioned in another forum, it makes his 14-140 lens virtually unusable. That's a real non-starter for me as I discovered.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:27 AM   #1132
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

That's why it's always safe to wait for the early adopters to report :) I got my Sony rx10 also when it came out to find out afterwards the zoomspeed was next to useless while recording, it's a good thing I like about everything else on the camera so I"ll take that inconvenience for the next weddings to see if I still like it then and if it can find a permanent place in my gearbag, otherwise I"m selling it.

I was thinking of replacing my g6 with a gh4 so I have a gh3 and gh4 meaning same functionality, same accessories, but I also like the g6 a lot, a very small and powerfull camera, only a tad less sharp compared to my gh3 in 50p, strangly it's sharper in 25p.

I"ll just wait to see new reports appearing about the gh4, eventhough the ax100 is a great camera as well I find it too expensive for a handicam, it's price will come down for sure the next months.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:32 AM   #1133
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Okay, I just tested 42 mm on the 14-42 ASPH 3.5-5.6 in 4K, 1080 60p and 30p. Did not notice the heat wave rolling shutter effect, but I did observe micro shaking in each mode while holding the camera very steady after a few seconds of recording. It's as if the camera-lens system decided IS didn't need to be active. When I resumed a slight pan IS would kick in again.

Last edited by Pat Reddy; May 4th, 2014 at 08:34 AM. Reason: correction
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:40 AM   #1134
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Hi

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat Reddy View Post
I am also seeing this micro shake rolling shutter issue at telephoto on the 45-175 lens. I don't recall ever seeing this with the GH2 and this lens. I also have observed the IS occasionally stopping altogether for a few seconds with this lens on the GH4. Is OIS on the GH4 in any way dependent on the processor in the camera? The rolling shutter clearly has something to do with the rate of scan in 4K mode.
Certainly seems to be related to rolling shutter. Rolling shutter in 1080P is much less so the effect is less as well. Is the wobble present if OIS is turned off but the camera still hand held and shaking?

Regards

Phil
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Old May 4th, 2014, 08:56 AM   #1135
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Only lens I have with OIS that can be turned off is the Leica 45 f2.8. With this lens handheld as steady as I can possibly get it and OIS turned off, there is plenty of micro shaking. My age and 3 shots of espresso probably has something to do with that. All lenses seem to do fine with OIS on and camera resting in fixed position on the desk.

Regards
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Old May 4th, 2014, 09:11 AM   #1136
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

So here's my hypothesis: With Panasonic lenses with OIS turned on while mounted on the GH4 when lenses are in moderate to full telephoto focal lengths, OIS will intermittently stop being active, introducing micro shake and, in turn, a rolling shutter issue when recording in 4K. I will not have time to post examples in the next few weeks, but this seems like something that would be necessary for confirmation by a wider set of users. The intermittent OIS could be an issue at wide and normal focal lengths, I haven't looked for this.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 09:23 AM   #1137
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

Getting back to the AX100, two of the reasons I sprung for the GH4 instead of the AX100 were better dynamic range on the GH4 (specifically fewer blown highlights and better highlight roll off) and my perception that there was small amplitude, high-frequency shaking (or micro-shaking) on the ax100 in telephoto focal lengths even when OIS was turned on. Ken, I observed this in some of your earlier samples. Don't remember if you had the OIS in active mode or not. Of course, acceptable stabilization is to some degree in the eye of the beholder.

Is my sense that this is an issue with the AX100 shared by others? I have read both that AX100 OIS is effective and that it doesn't measure up to earlier Sony 1080p camcorders. Is there any consensus on these things?

Last edited by Pat Reddy; May 4th, 2014 at 10:07 AM.
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Old May 4th, 2014, 02:55 PM   #1138
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

I'm going to take a guess here (started viewing 4K on my freshly and cheaply built and "almost" stable 4K capable computer/"monitor"...).

The added detail of 4K starts to show EVERY flaw or glitch more noticeably as I played back 4K AT 4K... little things mostly, but 4K on a 39" full screen and you start to spot "little things". AND those little things could have been introduced at ANY stage in processing, from capture to edit to upload to playback... but definitely was seeing "things" at 4K resolution - I'm sure they would have been inconsequential at a greater viewing distance, but at 2-3 feet from a 39" screen... temporal issues (30P motion stutter/skip) were also more noticeable, in SOME cases, yet not others...

SO, I'll hypothesize that at least some of the "micro glitching" we see is because we now see the tiny little movements, and because the rest of the image is so sharp, our eyes can't "unsee" them. We are attracted to the flaws by the way they stick out, where in a "blurry" (AKA lower definition!) image those flaws are covered up.

I have wondered a bit about how a "glamour" video such as a wedding shoot will go with close ups showing EVERY detail, perhaps some of this will not be as desirable as a "dreamy" soft image?? Maybe sometimes detail is NOT everything it's cracked up to be? Perhaps we are not entirely meant to have "perfect vision" in all situations? I've always heard about how the eye is easily tricked and fooled, with 4K we may discover things we wish we hadn't? Ah, brave new frontier!




Just as an "aside", building a computer to work with 4K has been quite an adventure on the "bleeding edge", so many tiny things that have to be "tuned", tweaked, or adjusted to work as expected - this was definitely NOT an "easy" build, and has a way to go (haven't even started installing photo and video editing software YET... waiting for another, hopefully stable, set of RAM to arrive, first set only one stick out of 4 runs at rated speed!).

There's no doubt that the display looks a lot better than my aging 24" monitors, and I'm looking forward to editing on this huge screen instead of multiple monitors... and one of these days having an AX100 in hand to experiment with!

The "fun" of being on the bleeding edge is that sometimes things DON'T work as expected 100%, and it takes time to figure out workarounds or options or where our "system" failed and must be adjusted... this is NOT "buy and go" territory! I've said it before, at least in video/imaging, wings don't fall off and no one dies, but it's still "interesting"!

While I am looking forward to 4K, whether the AX100 or if an RX10M2 is announced soon or whatever, it is an adventure, and will take some getting used to. I will say my eyes very much appreciate 4K!
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Old May 4th, 2014, 03:04 PM   #1139
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

@Pat -

The OIS cannot possibly "measure up" to the BOSS "magic eyeball" system used in the 7xx (and some lower models as well) series Handycams - the floating gimbaled system was capable of smoothing out much larger motions than any prior system, but it would be HUGE if adapted to the AX100 with the larger lens and sensor block.

As I watched some user videos posted here again as a test of my 4K system/display, I was definitely thinking "time to pull out the old support rigs that have been collecting dust".... stability of the camera, along with "good camera technique" is once again an "issue". I'm thinking about shooting in windy conditions, handheld, all the "nightmare" shooting situations... stuff that was mostly left behind shooting a 7xx series BOSS equipped camera!

That said, for the most part, I'd expect the stabilization on the AX100 to be reasonably adequate if one understands the limitations. Myself, I'll go dust those "rigs"! And keep a 7xx series camera around for when it's a better "tool"!
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Old May 4th, 2014, 03:28 PM   #1140
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Re: Sony FDR-AX100

In my PC there are a INTEL Core i7 980X 3.33Ghz 12MB processor and NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 video card. Do you think they are sufficient to edit 4K files of AX100?
Thanks for some infos.
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Last edited by Adriano Moroni; May 5th, 2014 at 12:48 AM.
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